the GUI has tremendus problems!

Im not talking about the design if its pretty or not... the look is ok...

I am talking about the "user experience"

There MUST be a way to be able to revert to the old way of doing things...

for example have a simple folder list page on windows explorer?
That common places folder on top is tremendously frustrating! After a few
mouse clicks it becomes common places, library and network.. where is my
computer??? lol You have to press 5 or 6 mouse clicks to get back to
that....

The start menu, that pops up the programs on to its self is a REALLY bad
idea!
Xp popped the menu towards the right and then the menus were cascading...
But now there is no way to remember where you were.. and were you want to
be.

At least you have the classic start menu to go back to.....but how many
people will know how to change that back...

And what about the helpful taskpanes that were in XP? they are gone
altogether...
You cannot imagine how helpful they were to novice users... and now all you
have is a bar on top with limited options...

And the explorer and internet explorer bar on top... you cannot customize it
all...
you are stuck with some elements you cannot change...

And the search? What no Google? What is this???

In general I am disappointed in what I saw and frustrated so much that I had
do download another explorer like program (file manager) so I could do
things....

XP was good because it was easy to use... as i see it Vista is NOT easy to
use (at least the beta)

I hope and I am confident that the MS team will fix these problems.. I am
concerned not about me, I can adapt fast since I am computer literate...
but about all the people that will be scratching their heads trying to
figure out how things are done.

Hey,

I understand your concerns - been there and done that - within the first few
days of 5112 (when it was still called Longhorn!) I reverted back to my beta
copy of Windows Server 2003 R2, because I didn't like it. However... some
answer's lie inline )

>
> There MUST be a way to be able to revert to the old way of doing things...
>
> for example have a simple folder list page on windows explorer?
> That common places folder on top is tremendously frustrating! After a few
> mouse clicks it becomes common places, library and network.. where is my
> computer??? lol You have to press 5 or 6 mouse clicks to get back to
> that....

Start orb (or button, depending on version), Control Panel, Folder Options.
General tab, and select "Use Windows classic folders" and on the View tab,
make sure that "Always show Classic Menus" and "Display simple folder view
in Explorer's Folders list" are ticked.

> The start menu, that pops up the programs on to its self is a REALLY bad
> idea!
> Xp popped the menu towards the right and then the menus were cascading...
> But now there is no way to remember where you were.. and were you want to
> be.

Totally agree, but having said that it's quite useful at times so I'm still
"on the fence" about it. Yeh you can revert back to Classic Start menu, but
at the moment it's part of the shell and will stay like that I'm afraid. The
only way to get it *possibly* changed is to do a protest at One Microsoft
Way )

> At least you have the classic start menu to go back to.....but how many
> people will know how to change that back...

Me!

> And what about the helpful taskpanes that were in XP? they are gone
> altogether...
> You cannot imagine how helpful they were to novice users... and now all
> you have is a bar on top with limited options...

I know, however I'll submit this as a suggestion, but this far into the beta
I doubt whether they'll have that to be honest. You can still press the Alt
key on the keyboard to toggle the top menu (with File, Edit and all that in
if it doesn't show up)

> And the explorer and internet explorer bar on top... you cannot customize
> it all...
> you are stuck with some elements you cannot change...

Ahh you can ) You can use the Group Policy Editor (gpedit.msc from the Run
command) and go into User Settings, and find the Internet Explorer
Maintenance one.

> And the search? What no Google? What is this???

Ahh, Google are rolling out their own addins. I can go to www.google.co.uk
and download the "Local Search" patch which does it! Don't forget, at the
moment, Google and Microsoft are arch-rivals... I doubt they'll be talking
to each other much!

Hope this helps a bit )


--
Zack Whittaker
Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
» ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk
» MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net
» ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum
» VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!

I provide tech support for many people... I can just imagine from saying go
to

start > All programs bla bla bla

I will have to say "go to the little round button like an orb with the flag
inside..."

at least they could make it animated to say start when you hover or
something...

As for your other suggestions I am aware of most of them.. and of course I
can configure my own machine like that, however....
That is not the standard layout... and will create problems for tech people
when
they have to provide support. Its a nightmare!
Also I can imagine all the people getting a new computer with vista, and
they will have to re-learn how to do things. I do not say that advancements
and changes must not be done.. but they must be done for a reason, and to
make things easier.. not harder!

I am just concerned.....

Oh and another thing... the dark colors may have a psychological impact on
all the users of computers. They should hire a team to research the colors
of vista...
its not about design alone. Colors have an impact on mood, and there are
many people who use the computer all day and night. As an artist, and as a
tech I know
how important this is, and is not to be taken lightly.
I would not be amazed to see depression levels increase worldwide! At least
they should provide a choice with colors, like they do with the wallpaper in
the beginning.

XP's Luna theme at least was happy!

Kenny


Whittaker (R2 Mentor)" <zackwhittaker@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ewoGSJgHGHA.1452@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Hey,
>
> I understand your concerns - been there and done that - within the first
> few days of 5112 (when it was still called Longhorn!) I reverted back to
> my beta copy of Windows Server 2003 R2, because I didn't like it.
> However... some answer's lie inline )
>
>>
>> There MUST be a way to be able to revert to the old way of doing
>> things...
>>
>> for example have a simple folder list page on windows explorer?
>> That common places folder on top is tremendously frustrating! After a few
>> mouse clicks it becomes common places, library and network.. where is my
>> computer??? lol You have to press 5 or 6 mouse clicks to get back to
>> that....
>
> Start orb (or button, depending on version), Control Panel, Folder
> Options. General tab, and select "Use Windows classic folders" and on the
> View tab, make sure that "Always show Classic Menus" and "Display simple
> folder view in Explorer's Folders list" are ticked.
>
>> The start menu, that pops up the programs on to its self is a REALLY bad
>> idea!
>> Xp popped the menu towards the right and then the menus were cascading...
>> But now there is no way to remember where you were.. and were you want to
>> be.
>
> Totally agree, but having said that it's quite useful at times so I'm
> still "on the fence" about it. Yeh you can revert back to Classic Start
> menu, but at the moment it's part of the shell and will stay like that I'm
> afraid. The only way to get it *possibly* changed is to do a protest at
> One Microsoft Way )
>
>> At least you have the classic start menu to go back to.....but how many
>> people will know how to change that back...
>
> Me!
>
>> And what about the helpful taskpanes that were in XP? they are gone
>> altogether...
>> You cannot imagine how helpful they were to novice users... and now all
>> you have is a bar on top with limited options...
>
> I know, however I'll submit this as a suggestion, but this far into the
> beta I doubt whether they'll have that to be honest. You can still press
> the Alt key on the keyboard to toggle the top menu (with File, Edit and
> all that in if it doesn't show up)
>
>> And the explorer and internet explorer bar on top... you cannot customize
>> it all...
>> you are stuck with some elements you cannot change...
>
> Ahh you can ) You can use the Group Policy Editor (gpedit.msc from the
> Run command) and go into User Settings, and find the Internet Explorer
> Maintenance one.
>
>> And the search? What no Google? What is this???
>
> Ahh, Google are rolling out their own addins. I can go to www.google.co.uk
> and download the "Local Search" patch which does it! Don't forget, at the
> moment, Google and Microsoft are arch-rivals... I doubt they'll be talking
> to each other much!
>
> Hope this helps a bit )
>
>
> --
> Zack Whittaker
> Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
> » ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk
> » MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net
> » ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum
> » VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase
> » This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and
> not
> of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!
>

LOL - yeh I totally see your point actually. Sorry I wasn't able to directly
answer some of your questions (

I think, the personalisation of the theme (Aero Glass and the colour mixer)
should have a direct effect on the colour of the maximised window. That'd be
cool )


--
Zack Whittaker
Microsoft Beta (Windows Server R2 Beta Mentor)
» ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk
» MSBlog on ResDev: http://msblog.resdev.net
» ZackNET Forum: www.zacknet.co.uk/forum
» VistaBase: www.zacknet.co.uk/vistabase
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, mother or cat. Let's be clear on that one!

All Programs

The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster. I can remember seeing menus
that cascaded 5 times across the screen then started their way back. This
was in the Win95 days before long menus could scroll. The scrolling
introduced in Win98 helped somewhat but you still had to deal with at least
2 levels of menus on a regular basis. I believe user studies have shown that
excessively cascading menus are very hard for users to control. They require
very fine mousing skills. Every company puts their software under a sub menu
named after the company. I don't even know the names of some of the
companies that make my software (thinks games here). If I give in and
carefully organize my programs menu into categories that make sense to me,
that careful organization soon falls apart as I install more programs. I
find it much more efficient to just let the install put the shortcuts where
it feels like and using the search box to find the app. I absolutely love
the new Browse n Search All Programs UI. It's one of my favorite Vista
features.


Taskpanes

I too find the taskpanes useful, but if you look closely, much of the
functionality that they contained is still present in the Aero UI. "Other
Places" is replaced by the "Common Places" list. "Details" is replaced by
whatever the metadata pane is called. Tasks themselves are now displayed on
the toolbar to the left of the standard buttons.


Etc

I do have some problems with the left hand pane and the group/sort/stack
functionality of the new Explorer, but I can't make a coherent case when I'm
not sitting in front of Vista so that will have to wait for another time.

> The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster.

oh no.. not if you make them tidy like I do! Mine is neatly organized!
I do it manually, but there is a program that does this ..

http://www.tidystartmenu.com/index.shtml

couldnt Microsoft buy this or implement something similar and integrate it
into windows like they have the desktop cleaning function?

Microsoft should be asking me what to do.. :-)


"Chris Altmann" <avalid@emailaddress.zoo> wrote in message
news:%2395GlthHGHA.2036@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> All Programs
>
> The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster. I can remember seeing menus
> that cascaded 5 times across the screen then started their way back. This
> was in the Win95 days before long menus could scroll. The scrolling
> introduced in Win98 helped somewhat but you still had to deal with at
> least 2 levels of menus on a regular basis. I believe user studies have
> shown that excessively cascading menus are very hard for users to control.
> They require very fine mousing skills. Every company puts their software
> under a sub menu named after the company. I don't even know the names of
> some of the companies that make my software (thinks games here). If I give
> in and carefully organize my programs menu into categories that make sense
> to me, that careful organization soon falls apart as I install more
> programs. I find it much more efficient to just let the install put the
> shortcuts where it feels like and using the search box to find the app. I
> absolutely love the new Browse n Search All Programs UI. It's one of my
> favorite Vista features.
>
>
> Taskpanes
>
> I too find the taskpanes useful, but if you look closely, much of the
> functionality that they contained is still present in the Aero UI. "Other
> Places" is replaced by the "Common Places" list. "Details" is replaced by
> whatever the metadata pane is called. Tasks themselves are now displayed
> on the toolbar to the left of the standard buttons.
>
>
> Etc
>
> I do have some problems with the left hand pane and the group/sort/stack
> functionality of the new Explorer, but I can't make a coherent case when
> I'm not sitting in front of Vista so that will have to wait for another
> time.
>

I agree with how companies make thier own shortcut folders. But Vista isn't
solving the problem, it's just making the best out of it i.e. make the user
type the program name or keep using folders on the left side of the Start
menu. They SHOULD FORCE CATEGORIES that ALL software companies must adhere
to. But, I'm afraid it'll be 2010+ for Windows Paranoma (7.0) before any UI
changes be made...

P.S. Arghhh I am soooo confused with MS. Can you believe Office 12 won't be
using Avalon? OMG they keep failing to keep sync with their products
everytime and you just have to wait for 3/4 years before they get things
right with the next version. Case in point: Office XP did not match Windows
XP's Luna theme and its features, not until Office 2003.... do I need to
mention about WinFS + Longhorn Server?


"Chris Altmann" <avalid@emailaddress.zoo>
:%2395GlthHGHA.2036@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> All Programs
>
> The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster. I can remember seeing menus
> that cascaded 5 times across the screen then started their way back. This
> was in the Win95 days before long menus could scroll. The scrolling
> introduced in Win98 helped somewhat but you still had to deal with at
> least 2 levels of menus on a regular basis. I believe user studies have
> shown that excessively cascading menus are very hard for users to control.
> They require very fine mousing skills. Every company puts their software
> under a sub menu named after the company. I don't even know the names of
> some of the companies that make my software (thinks games here). If I give
> in and carefully organize my programs menu into categories that make sense
> to me, that careful organization soon falls apart as I install more
> programs. I find it much more efficient to just let the install put the
> shortcuts where it feels like and using the search box to find the app. I
> absolutely love the new Browse n Search All Programs UI. It's one of my
> favorite Vista features.
>
>
> Taskpanes
>
> I too find the taskpanes useful, but if you look closely, much of the
> functionality that they contained is still present in the Aero UI. "Other
> Places" is replaced by the "Common Places" list. "Details" is replaced by
> whatever the metadata pane is called. Tasks themselves are now displayed
> on the toolbar to the left of the standard buttons.
>
>
> Etc
>
> I do have some problems with the left hand pane and the group/sort/stack
> functionality of the new Explorer, but I can't make a coherent case when
> I'm not sitting in front of Vista so that will have to wait for another
> time.
>

I thought you were in customer support? You expect basic users can
'logically' and 'manually' organise all their programs into groups? Who the
hell wants to do this anyway? I hate organising my favourites in to
hierarchies that take endless clicks to find anything. There are better
ways of solving this problem, and the browse and search solution is along
the right road.

"kenny" <nope@at.all> wrote in message
news:%23kfQTMiHGHA.3144@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster.
>
> oh no.. not if you make them tidy like I do! Mine is neatly organized!
> I do it manually, but there is a program that does this ..
>
> http://www.tidystartmenu.com/index.shtml
>
> couldnt Microsoft buy this or implement something similar and integrate it
> into windows like they have the desktop cleaning function?
>
> Microsoft should be asking me what to do.. :-)
>
>
> "Chris Altmann" <avalid@emailaddress.zoo> wrote in message
> news:%2395GlthHGHA.2036@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> All Programs
>>
>> The All Programs menu pre-Vista is a disaster. I can remember seeing
>> menus that cascaded 5 times across the screen then started their way
>> back. This was in the Win95 days before long menus could scroll. The
>> scrolling introduced in Win98 helped somewhat but you still had to deal
>> with at least 2 levels of menus on a regular basis. I believe user
>> studies have shown that excessively cascading menus are very hard for
>> users to control. They require very fine mousing skills. Every company
>> puts their software under a sub menu named after the company. I don't
>> even know the names of some of the companies that make my software
>> (thinks games here). If I give in and carefully organize my programs menu
>> into categories that make sense to me, that careful organization soon
>> falls apart as I install more programs. I find it much more efficient to
>> just let the install put the shortcuts where it feels like and using the
>> search box to find the app. I absolutely love the new Browse n Search All
>> Programs UI. It's one of my favorite Vista features.
>>
>>
>> Taskpanes
>>
>> I too find the taskpanes useful, but if you look closely, much of the
>> functionality that they contained is still present in the Aero UI. "Other
>> Places" is replaced by the "Common Places" list. "Details" is replaced by
>> whatever the metadata pane is called. Tasks themselves are now displayed
>> on the toolbar to the left of the standard buttons.
>>
>>
>> Etc
>>
>> I do have some problems with the left hand pane and the group/sort/stack
>> functionality of the new Explorer, but I can't make a coherent case when
>> I'm not sitting in front of Vista so that will have to wait for another
>> time.
>>
>
>

"The start menu, that pops up the programs on to its self is a REALLY bad
idea! Xp popped the menu towards the right and then the menus were
cascading... But now there is no way to remember where you were.. and were
you want to be."

I actually find taking up less space is better, I think one good way is to
make the arrow next to All Programs facing up. That should ease the
confusion.

But I would suggest MS to scrap the folder system for organizing programs.
*Come on!* categories for programs like in Control Panel please!

"kenny" <nope@at.all> wrote in message
news:usUMLofHGHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Im not talking about the design if its pretty or not... the look is ok...
>
> I am talking about the "user experience"
>
> There MUST be a way to be able to revert to the old way of doing things...
>
> for example have a simple folder list page on windows explorer?
> That common places folder on top is tremendously frustrating! After a few
> mouse clicks it becomes common places, library and network.. where is my
> computer??? lol You have to press 5 or 6 mouse clicks to get back to
> that....
>
> The start menu, that pops up the programs on to its self is a REALLY bad
> idea!
> Xp popped the menu towards the right and then the menus were cascading...
> But now there is no way to remember where you were.. and were you want to
> be.
>
> At least you have the classic start menu to go back to.....but how many
> people will know how to change that back...
>
> And what about the helpful taskpanes that were in XP? they are gone
> altogether...
> You cannot imagine how helpful they were to novice users... and now all
> you have is a bar on top with limited options...
>
> And the explorer and internet explorer bar on top... you cannot customize
> it all...
> you are stuck with some elements you cannot change...
>
> And the search? What no Google? What is this???
>
> In general I am disappointed in what I saw and frustrated so much that I
> had do download another explorer like program (file manager) so I could do
> things....
>
> XP was good because it was easy to use... as i see it Vista is NOT easy to
> use (at least the beta)
>
> I hope and I am confident that the MS team will fix these problems.. I am
> concerned not about me, I can adapt fast since I am computer literate...
> but about all the people that will be scratching their heads trying to
> figure out how things are done.
>
>
>