Vista - complain about wpf

I want to give my opinion about the powerfull technology which is Windows
Presentation Fundation. I decided write these words just because I'm really
desapointed not specially about WPF him self, but more about the tools
Microsoft has developped to allows us to create application using WPF. I
understood that Microsoft want to allow Developers and Designers work
together on the same GUI. This is a very good. In this direction it is very
interesting to have tools (Expression series) dedicated to designer.

Unfortunatly, my opinion is that the tool (cider) given with visual studio
is awfull. Using this tool is like using notepad to create a form with
winform. With the given tools it is harder to do a xaml page then to make an
aspnet page. I lost all the productivity of the winforms.
In my job I have to create prototypes quickly. I have a very limited time to
realize some GUIs be shown to my customers. Unfortunatly, because Visual
Studio is a bad IDE for XAML, I have to continue to create my GUI with
winforms. And of course they cannot be reuse in the real project.
Try to make visually (this why it is Visual Studio no ?) a complex GUI with
XAML and Visual Studio, using some toolbars, menus, context menus, status
bar, gridviews, and treeviews ... with Visual Studio and XAML that's became a
hell in comparaison to winform or aspnet.

Worst, the Microsoft guys have decided to explode one the biggest advantage
of .NET Framework: the learning curve between web development and windows
development. That was one thing I'm really apreciate with .NET. What I
learned in winform can be reuse in aspnet because the philosophy is similar
in many points. Unfortunatly it is no more the case with XAML. One simple
example, is the way to change the caption of button. Try to found a Text
property like in ASPNET or WinForm. Or the way to bind a combobox. With XAML
I have to lost a lot of time to understand the logic behind the scene and the
tools cannot help me.
When I migrated from VB6 to Winform I could keep some past experience and
evolve to .NET with no much pain. Also, I could not understand why Microsoft
put the gap so high between xaml and winform. At least the IDE should be
helpfull to manage developers to walk toward this new framework.

One day I decided to install Expression blend to see if it could help me.
I'm not a graphist and I'm not a pro of photoshop. I'm just a developer who
want to make some GUIs and Expression is not for developers. It doesn't solve
the problem to create classical windows GUI simply and quickly. WPF want to
be a flash killer. Yes it is. But today it is just a flash killer. A way to
animate some part of a screen. I don't believe It will be the prefered
choice, for a majority of .NET developers, deciding to make windows GUI
before a long time (may be only some software editors can move faster).

The fact is there are 2 main ways to work with designers: the 1st is the
designer start making the GUI and developer work after and the 2nd is the
developer start to create some GUI and the designer modify them by applying
styles for examples. It seems that Microsoft has decided that the only way
possible was the 1st one.

I'm really desapointed because I think WPF has a very serious potential. One
thing I hope, is that Microsoft will make the version after of Visual Studio
(2009 or 2010? that's so far) will be able to developers to really create GUI
visually with XAML as simply as with WinForms. Unless they decided WPF is
only for graphic designers.

I would like to know if I'm the only one who have this impression, and what
you are thinking about WPF and the VisualStudio tools for WPF ?

Joel, I'm sorry to say your missing the point of what WPF is all about.

You can mock up a GUI very quickly with xmal and not even need the Design
interface. You could do it just from the xmal window.



"Joël" wrote:

Hi Joel,

Wow, you do sound like you're really in pain. OK, let's try to soothe it.

1) Let me start by correcting your wrong assumption: WPF is not and will
never be the Flash killer. WPF is for rich, powerful applications. Flash
is for the web. Even if you're thinking of Silverlight (which is not
WPF), it's still wrong to see it as the Flash killer. Even Microsoft
doesn't see it this way. Trying to kill Flash would be very
contraproductive. I see Silverlight as a great complement to Flash, much
more powerful in some ways (the fact that I can use .NET to program
Silverlight is just so much better than anything I can do in Flash);
however, one area where SIlverlight (and WPF) can improve a lot is the
tools, as you found out.

2) WPF is not even 1 year old. It was published in 2006. Obviously, it's
a young technology, and the next versions of the visual designer in
Visual Studio will be much better. Try to download and install Visual
Studio 2008 and try it, it's already a big improvement over Visual
Studio 2005 (in fact, the visual designer in 2005 is just impossible to
use). In November this year, Microsoft will release a new version of
Visual Studio 2008, which will be pretty finished. You can then safely
install 2008 over 2005 and convert all your projects to it. Visual
Studio 2008 is way better than 2005, even for ASP.NET or for WinForms.

3) The XAML editor is not a visual designer. It's a way to refine your
UI after having drafted it in Blend or Visual Studio's visual designer.
Some developers, however, love to type XAML (I am one of them). I am not
quite sure why you say it's not better than Notepad. Did Intellisense
stop working for you? In Studio 2008, the XAML editor still has a few
problems, they are known and will be corrected in the next version. But
over all, typing XAML in the XAML editor is a comfortable experience, if
Intellisense works. You can learn a big deal about WPF by typing the
XAML. But some developers will never like it. It's very similar to the
old question: Do you prefer to type HTML, or do you prefer to use a
visual designer. Some prefer typing, some don't.

4) The good news is that you should really brace yourself and try Blend
again. Yes, it has a rather high learning curve. But once you learn it,
you'll love it. I saw that so many times amongst the developers I coach.
A lot of criticisms in the beginning, and then suddenly they fall in
love. Don't worry, take it easy, give it time. There are many tutorials
online, try to take them if you can
http://www.microsoft.com/expression/...?type=tutorial
http://blogs.msdn.com/expression/articles/543834.aspx

5) Once you master Blend, you'll see that making prototypes in WPF is
faster than anything you learned before. Heck, I even draw mock UIs in
Blend instead of Visio because it's just so much better and faster! It's
worth taking the time to learn it.

6) The learning curve: Yes, it's huge. You're not the only one to be
afraid. It's normal. It's also, unfortunately for some, fortunately for
others, the fate of software developers: I use to say that I am learning
a new profession every 3rd year. It often feels this way, that the job
totally changes that often. I personally love it (I am 13 years in the
profession, BTW), it makes me feel alive. But it can also be painful
sometimes. The fear factor in the beginning is normal. I also experience
it. Just take it easy.

7) If you're good at WinForms, then you can continue to do WinForms!
There will be a market for WinForms developers for a long time, believe
me. And even longer for ASP.NET developers (Microsoft puts a lot of
energy in developing ASP.NET. That's going to stay for sure). There is a
lot of room for every kind of talent.

I could go on and on, but basically it all comes down to this: Yes,
there is a big learning curve to WPF, but when you tacle it, you'll love
it. WPF is really a lot of fun. Just take it easy.

By the way, this forum is very quiet and is not monitored by Microsoft.
If you have questions about WPF, you'd better post in the MSDN forums:
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/Sho...D=119&SiteID=1

HTH!!
Laurent

Joël wrote:--
Laurent Bugnion [MVP ASP.NET]
Software engineering, Blog: http://www.galasoft.ch
PhotoAlbum: http://www.galasoft.ch/pictures
Support children in Calcutta: http://www.calcutta-espoir.ch

Well, you're right... You can do it quickly, if you're an experimented xaml
developer. Unfortunatly I'm not and not my collegues. Xaml is very powerfull
and offer so much possibilities than you have to be experimented to know what
to do.
In fact, xaml is not the problem but the IDE Visual Studio and particularly
Cider. How can you explain that there is no smartpart to help beginners to
design some more usefull aspect of a control ? How can you explain that the
properties of the Visual Studio grid properties doesn't display any help
about any selected property (when you know how many they are and their names
have changed totally from current usage) ? How can you explain that
intellisense is not splitten between common and all options like it is done
in VB.NET ? How can you explain that the positionning of controls in X,Y mode
is not the default one in all case (I try to position a label into a groupbox
I had to read a book to get that. What a shame.) ? And that not all...
After that, how can you believe I could advocate the use of WPF to develop a
business oriented application. Since I would never have a xaml experimented
developer team to do the job, at least not before several years.
I think that to allow WPF to be the most used GUI platform for windows
application, Microsoft has to change its point of view about how the tools
must be used by developers. Surprisingly, Microsoft who was excellent on this
type of application, today it seems to have forgotten the lessons of the
past. But may be it is a strange commercial stragegy I couldn't understand or
may be WPF isn't a priority today.



"__Stephen" wrote:

"Laurent Bugnion, MVP" wrote:
well, when I saying it is a Flash killer I wasn't thinking it could really
kill it, and don't hope that. I agree with you this would be very
contraproductive. It is just an expression of enthusiasm about the product.
;-)
It is very young, you're right, but I was speaking about Visual Studio 2008
beta 2. This is this version I use to test the product. I really found Visual
Studio 2008 is very good, close to be excellent in most of its
functionnalities. But, I sorry to say Cider is a bad editor and I'm afraid
this could give WPF a bad reputation at the begining. If too much developers
think like me, it will be more difficult to develop its adoption later.
If it is not a visual designer, it is a bad news for .NET developers. If we
absolutly need 2 IDEs just to create a GUI, it is a breach that may be
exploited by concurrent platforms.
About intellisense, it is not usefull for a beginner because there are too
many choice (may be hundreds). Of course I was exagerating a little bit.
Intellisense made it better than notepad but not better than a xml editor
with an associated schema.
I already tested Expression blend and I abandoned. May be I should persist
to learn it. But there so many usefull products to learn these days than I
can't give Expression to much time. Specially because I think as WPF is hard
to begin with, its adoption will be more longer giving time to Microsoft to
get out a new product and giving me time to begin to learn it.
Well, that is the problem. Any developper have to take time to learn it. It
is not enough intuitive for a beginner. Imagine how it could cost in a team...
That's true, and I love that. But I not all developers.
Well, I'm good in WinForms but I found them in some way constraining and
restrictive and WPF offers me all I would like to get. But, currently they
still be economically a better choice than WPF for me. I had the hope to have
with WPF a product that may allow windows applications compete better against
web applications.
thanks.