Vista - Type 1 font support

Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional print
application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for its
rendering.

TonyB.

WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
WinForms interop.

-- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional print
> application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for its
> rendering.
>
> TonyB.
>

So MS Publisher will have to drop support for Type 1(not an option for an
App that has a profession print feature) or never user Avalon to render.

I bet the MS Publisher guys just love the Avalon team.

TonyB.

"Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" <ifeanyie@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ey5sMfsIGHA.3144@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
> WinForms interop.
>
> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional print
>> application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for its
>> rendering.
>>
>> TonyB.
>>
>
>

Ruben,

Would love to get more details on the type of application you are trying to
write, understand what functionality you need, and help you out if there any
issues. Please contact me and we can dig into it.

Thanks,

-Pablo

"Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
news:30AC5456-F538-483F-BDBA-2F44A8134157@microsoft.com...
> So it is NOT possible to use Type 1 in WPF at all. The WinForms interop
> possibility you refer to doesn't exist: WinForms and System.Drawing are
> TrueType only. There is no alternate font support whatsoever, not even
> OpenType. Win32 is also a laugh, please get serious here: WPF cannot
> interop
> with GDI without punching opaque holes right through WPF, or rendering in
> off-screen buffers. That's a waste of precious time, and still won't
> provide
> any real Type 1 support.
>
> One serious question though: how on earth can Metro/XPS (MS's
> PDF-replacement) work without Type 1 support in WPF? Will the Type 1 fonts
> be
> replaced with generic fonts like Arial? That would be yet another reason
> not
> to consider WPF for any serious typography.
>
> Adobe made it quite clear: it was MS's decision to cull Type 1. And that's
> what you're doing, step by step.
>
> "Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" wrote:
>
>> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
>> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
>> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
>> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
>> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
>> WinForms interop.
>>
>> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>> rights.
>>
>> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> > Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional
>> > print
>> > application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for
>> > its
>> > rendering.
>> >
>> > TonyB.
>> >
>>
>>
>>

Basically any application where the user is free to select fonts, no
framework should ever artificially limit the font formats it supports. It's
confusing for one, and it can be a real problem when people try to use their
*expensive* fonts that do work in the rest of Windows, but not in your apps.
Because the limitation is burried so deeply in both Avalon and
System.Drawing, there is no workaround possible, except a complete rewrite of
the 'offending' app in Win32/GDI. It's impossible to show any text in a Type
1 font inside an area managed by System.Drawing or WPF, because GDI cannot
interop with both frameworks' transformations, brushes, fills, opacity
handling, etc. And don't get me started on input boxes where users can
actually type in text in a WYSIWYG manner. I know, that's totally against the
philosophy of WPF, but people seem to like such old skool behavior ;-)

But that still leaves the question: if WPF can't do it, how can Metro/XPS
still provide faithful representations of printed documents that contain Type
1 fonts? Believe me, Type 1 is still a major font format in the publishing
world. Personally, I use Type 1 fonts on a daily basis. I'm not saying that's
a good thing, but it's a fact of life that WPF tries to ignore. Downgrading
or even rasterizing fonts would be the worst thing since GDI+. Or Microsoft
Bob for that matter.

"Pablo Fernicola [MS]" wrote:

> Ruben,
>
> Would love to get more details on the type of application you are trying to
> write, understand what functionality you need, and help you out if there any
> issues. Please contact me and we can dig into it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Pablo
>
> "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
> news:30AC5456-F538-483F-BDBA-2F44A8134157@microsoft.com...
> > So it is NOT possible to use Type 1 in WPF at all. The WinForms interop
> > possibility you refer to doesn't exist: WinForms and System.Drawing are
> > TrueType only. There is no alternate font support whatsoever, not even
> > OpenType. Win32 is also a laugh, please get serious here: WPF cannot
> > interop
> > with GDI without punching opaque holes right through WPF, or rendering in
> > off-screen buffers. That's a waste of precious time, and still won't
> > provide
> > any real Type 1 support.
> >
> > One serious question though: how on earth can Metro/XPS (MS's
> > PDF-replacement) work without Type 1 support in WPF? Will the Type 1 fonts
> > be
> > replaced with generic fonts like Arial? That would be yet another reason
> > not
> > to consider WPF for any serious typography.
> >
> > Adobe made it quite clear: it was MS's decision to cull Type 1. And that's
> > what you're doing, step by step.
> >
> > "Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" wrote:
> >
> >> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
> >> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
> >> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
> >> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
> >> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
> >> WinForms interop.
> >>
> >> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> >> rights.
> >>
> >> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> >> > Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional
> >> > print
> >> > application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for
> >> > its
> >> > rendering.
> >> >
> >> > TonyB.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

Type 1 font support is so important to so many application including many
Microsoft apps, I just can't understand why Type 1 support isn't on the must
have list.

TonyB.

"Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
news:E945A8B5-EFB2-4D93-B16F-EDD23056C41D@microsoft.com...
> Basically any application where the user is free to select fonts, no
> framework should ever artificially limit the font formats it supports.
> It's
> confusing for one, and it can be a real problem when people try to use
> their
> *expensive* fonts that do work in the rest of Windows, but not in your
> apps.
> Because the limitation is burried so deeply in both Avalon and
> System.Drawing, there is no workaround possible, except a complete rewrite
> of
> the 'offending' app in Win32/GDI. It's impossible to show any text in a
> Type
> 1 font inside an area managed by System.Drawing or WPF, because GDI cannot
> interop with both frameworks' transformations, brushes, fills, opacity
> handling, etc. And don't get me started on input boxes where users can
> actually type in text in a WYSIWYG manner. I know, that's totally against
> the
> philosophy of WPF, but people seem to like such old skool behavior ;-)
>
> But that still leaves the question: if WPF can't do it, how can Metro/XPS
> still provide faithful representations of printed documents that contain
> Type
> 1 fonts? Believe me, Type 1 is still a major font format in the publishing
> world. Personally, I use Type 1 fonts on a daily basis. I'm not saying
> that's
> a good thing, but it's a fact of life that WPF tries to ignore.
> Downgrading
> or even rasterizing fonts would be the worst thing since GDI+. Or
> Microsoft
> Bob for that matter.
>
> "Pablo Fernicola [MS]" wrote:
>
>> Ruben,
>>
>> Would love to get more details on the type of application you are trying
>> to
>> write, understand what functionality you need, and help you out if there
>> any
>> issues. Please contact me and we can dig into it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Pablo
>>
>> "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
>> news:30AC5456-F538-483F-BDBA-2F44A8134157@microsoft.com...
>> > So it is NOT possible to use Type 1 in WPF at all. The WinForms interop
>> > possibility you refer to doesn't exist: WinForms and System.Drawing are
>> > TrueType only. There is no alternate font support whatsoever, not even
>> > OpenType. Win32 is also a laugh, please get serious here: WPF cannot
>> > interop
>> > with GDI without punching opaque holes right through WPF, or rendering
>> > in
>> > off-screen buffers. That's a waste of precious time, and still won't
>> > provide
>> > any real Type 1 support.
>> >
>> > One serious question though: how on earth can Metro/XPS (MS's
>> > PDF-replacement) work without Type 1 support in WPF? Will the Type 1
>> > fonts
>> > be
>> > replaced with generic fonts like Arial? That would be yet another
>> > reason
>> > not
>> > to consider WPF for any serious typography.
>> >
>> > Adobe made it quite clear: it was MS's decision to cull Type 1. And
>> > that's
>> > what you're doing, step by step.
>> >
>> > "Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" wrote:
>> >
>> >> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
>> >> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
>> >> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
>> >> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
>> >> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
>> >> WinForms interop.
>> >>
>> >> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>> >> rights.
>> >>
>> >> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> >> > Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional
>> >> > print
>> >> > application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF for
>> >> > its
>> >> > rendering.
>> >> >
>> >> > TonyB.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>

Tony & Ruben,
This blog post by Adobe's Thomas Phinney may be of interest to you
regarding the phasing out of Type 1 fonts:
http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/...g_out_typ.html

Chris

"TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:u9MqNAkJGHA.1452@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Type 1 font support is so important to so many application including many
> Microsoft apps, I just can't understand why Type 1 support isn't on the
> must have list.
>
> TonyB.
>
> "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
> news:E945A8B5-EFB2-4D93-B16F-EDD23056C41D@microsoft.com...
>> Basically any application where the user is free to select fonts, no
>> framework should ever artificially limit the font formats it supports.
>> It's
>> confusing for one, and it can be a real problem when people try to use
>> their
>> *expensive* fonts that do work in the rest of Windows, but not in your
>> apps.
>> Because the limitation is burried so deeply in both Avalon and
>> System.Drawing, there is no workaround possible, except a complete
>> rewrite of
>> the 'offending' app in Win32/GDI. It's impossible to show any text in a
>> Type
>> 1 font inside an area managed by System.Drawing or WPF, because GDI
>> cannot
>> interop with both frameworks' transformations, brushes, fills, opacity
>> handling, etc. And don't get me started on input boxes where users can
>> actually type in text in a WYSIWYG manner. I know, that's totally against
>> the
>> philosophy of WPF, but people seem to like such old skool behavior ;-)
>>
>> But that still leaves the question: if WPF can't do it, how can Metro/XPS
>> still provide faithful representations of printed documents that contain
>> Type
>> 1 fonts? Believe me, Type 1 is still a major font format in the
>> publishing
>> world. Personally, I use Type 1 fonts on a daily basis. I'm not saying
>> that's
>> a good thing, but it's a fact of life that WPF tries to ignore.
>> Downgrading
>> or even rasterizing fonts would be the worst thing since GDI+. Or
>> Microsoft
>> Bob for that matter.
>>
>> "Pablo Fernicola [MS]" wrote:
>>
>>> Ruben,
>>>
>>> Would love to get more details on the type of application you are trying
>>> to
>>> write, understand what functionality you need, and help you out if there
>>> any
>>> issues. Please contact me and we can dig into it.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -Pablo
>>>
>>> "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
>>> news:30AC5456-F538-483F-BDBA-2F44A8134157@microsoft.com...
>>> > So it is NOT possible to use Type 1 in WPF at all. The WinForms
>>> > interop
>>> > possibility you refer to doesn't exist: WinForms and System.Drawing
>>> > are
>>> > TrueType only. There is no alternate font support whatsoever, not even
>>> > OpenType. Win32 is also a laugh, please get serious here: WPF cannot
>>> > interop
>>> > with GDI without punching opaque holes right through WPF, or rendering
>>> > in
>>> > off-screen buffers. That's a waste of precious time, and still won't
>>> > provide
>>> > any real Type 1 support.
>>> >
>>> > One serious question though: how on earth can Metro/XPS (MS's
>>> > PDF-replacement) work without Type 1 support in WPF? Will the Type 1
>>> > fonts
>>> > be
>>> > replaced with generic fonts like Arial? That would be yet another
>>> > reason
>>> > not
>>> > to consider WPF for any serious typography.
>>> >
>>> > Adobe made it quite clear: it was MS's decision to cull Type 1. And
>>> > that's
>>> > what you're doing, step by step.
>>> >
>>> > "Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
>>> >> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
>>> >> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
>>> >> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
>>> >> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
>>> >> WinForms interop.
>>> >>
>>> >> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
>>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>>> >> rights.
>>> >>
>>> >> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> >> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> >> > Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional
>>> >> > print
>>> >> > application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF
>>> >> > for
>>> >> > its
>>> >> > rendering.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > TonyB.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

Yes, I was aware of this blog. I especially liked the phrase "Even if
Microsoft had been willing to put a Type 1 rasterizer in Avalon, [...]". Not.

Still, Adobe (in the person of Thomas Phinney) talks about phasing out
creating, selling and commercially supporting Type 1 fonts, not about phasing
out Type 1 font support. It was MS who decided to do that.

Still, what about Metro/XPS? I'm just dying to get an answer on that subject!

"Chris Han [MSFT]" wrote:

> Tony & Ruben,
> This blog post by Adobe's Thomas Phinney may be of interest to you
> regarding the phasing out of Type 1 fonts:
> http://blogs.adobe.com/typblography/...g_out_typ.html
>
> Chris
>
> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:u9MqNAkJGHA.1452@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > Type 1 font support is so important to so many application including many
> > Microsoft apps, I just can't understand why Type 1 support isn't on the
> > must have list.
> >
> > TonyB.
> >
> > "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
> > news:E945A8B5-EFB2-4D93-B16F-EDD23056C41D@microsoft.com...
> >> Basically any application where the user is free to select fonts, no
> >> framework should ever artificially limit the font formats it supports.
> >> It's
> >> confusing for one, and it can be a real problem when people try to use
> >> their
> >> *expensive* fonts that do work in the rest of Windows, but not in your
> >> apps.
> >> Because the limitation is burried so deeply in both Avalon and
> >> System.Drawing, there is no workaround possible, except a complete
> >> rewrite of
> >> the 'offending' app in Win32/GDI. It's impossible to show any text in a
> >> Type
> >> 1 font inside an area managed by System.Drawing or WPF, because GDI
> >> cannot
> >> interop with both frameworks' transformations, brushes, fills, opacity
> >> handling, etc. And don't get me started on input boxes where users can
> >> actually type in text in a WYSIWYG manner. I know, that's totally against
> >> the
> >> philosophy of WPF, but people seem to like such old skool behavior ;-)
> >>
> >> But that still leaves the question: if WPF can't do it, how can Metro/XPS
> >> still provide faithful representations of printed documents that contain
> >> Type
> >> 1 fonts? Believe me, Type 1 is still a major font format in the
> >> publishing
> >> world. Personally, I use Type 1 fonts on a daily basis. I'm not saying
> >> that's
> >> a good thing, but it's a fact of life that WPF tries to ignore.
> >> Downgrading
> >> or even rasterizing fonts would be the worst thing since GDI+. Or
> >> Microsoft
> >> Bob for that matter.
> >>
> >> "Pablo Fernicola [MS]" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ruben,
> >>>
> >>> Would love to get more details on the type of application you are trying
> >>> to
> >>> write, understand what functionality you need, and help you out if there
> >>> any
> >>> issues. Please contact me and we can dig into it.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> -Pablo
> >>>
> >>> "Ruben" <somewhere@nowhere.ok> wrote in message
> >>> news:30AC5456-F538-483F-BDBA-2F44A8134157@microsoft.com...
> >>> > So it is NOT possible to use Type 1 in WPF at all. The WinForms
> >>> > interop
> >>> > possibility you refer to doesn't exist: WinForms and System.Drawing
> >>> > are
> >>> > TrueType only. There is no alternate font support whatsoever, not even
> >>> > OpenType. Win32 is also a laugh, please get serious here: WPF cannot
> >>> > interop
> >>> > with GDI without punching opaque holes right through WPF, or rendering
> >>> > in
> >>> > off-screen buffers. That's a waste of precious time, and still won't
> >>> > provide
> >>> > any real Type 1 support.
> >>> >
> >>> > One serious question though: how on earth can Metro/XPS (MS's
> >>> > PDF-replacement) work without Type 1 support in WPF? Will the Type 1
> >>> > fonts
> >>> > be
> >>> > replaced with generic fonts like Arial? That would be yet another
> >>> > reason
> >>> > not
> >>> > to consider WPF for any serious typography.
> >>> >
> >>> > Adobe made it quite clear: it was MS's decision to cull Type 1. And
> >>> > that's
> >>> > what you're doing, step by step.
> >>> >
> >>> > "Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]" wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> WPF does not natively support Postscript Type 1 fonts.
> >>> >> WPF supports OpenType fonts which is the successor to TrueType and
> >>> >> Postscript fonts (including Postscript Type 1 fonts).
> >>> >> Vista will still support Type 1 fonts as does XP.
> >>> >> It will still be possible to display Type 1 fonts in WPF via Win32 or
> >>> >> WinForms interop.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -- Ifeanyi Echeruo [MSFT]
> >>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> >>> >> rights.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "TonyB" <Tony@TheBrightman.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>> >> news:uC%23QPTlIGHA.2696@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> >>> >> > Does WPF support Type 1 fonts? This is a must for any professional
> >>> >> > print
> >>> >> > application. If not then I guess MS Publisher will never use WPF
> >>> >> > for
> >>> >> > its
> >>> >> > rendering.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > TonyB.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>
>
>