I was looking for the expression products on MSDN, seems they are not
there. I'm getting used to the fact that MSFT loves to post some stuff
on connect, some on the regular website, some on MSDN, I assume one
day CTP's will appear on a myspace site.



STILL, I wonder why the expression stuff is not on MSDN ? Are
subscribers supposed to sign up with another website and pay another
subscription to get it ?

Unfortunately I believe I've heard that Expression will NOT be included as
part of the MSDN subscription and will require an additional fee to obtain
licenses for it. The indicated reason is that Expression it is for
designers and MSDN is for developers.


"nojetlag" <apanospam57@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gpc4s2hl6k7ppmv2r4ogs8t016q46p3p99@4ax.com...
>I was looking for the expression products on MSDN, seems they are not
> there. I'm getting used to the fact that MSFT loves to post some stuff
> on connect, some on the regular website, some on MSDN, I assume one
> day CTP's will appear on a myspace site.
>
> STILL, I wonder why the expression stuff is not on MSDN ? Are
> subscribers supposed to sign up with another website and pay another
> subscription to get it ?

In real life Developers Use Blend. At least today.
Me for example, I need blend to test my WFP custom controls.
I use blend to see how they works in a designtool!
If blend or parts of it will be inside the new Visual Studio its ok.
Developers also need a tool to design GUIS ;-)

Best regards
Horst

I completely agree with you and am in the same boat as you. I pay a lot of
money for an MSDN, do plan on using Expression tools, and was very surprised
to hear they weren't planned to be part of the MSDN. I need to test on them
as well.

I am just relaying what I had heard. Maybe with enough pressure from
developers they will change their minds on this. There are postings all
over the internet from devs who are frustrated on this.

With some more searching in forums, I found this info from an MS employee's
posting which supposedly is an official FAQ on the subject:
--
What replaces FrontPage in MSDN subscriptions?
Sharepoint Designer replaces FrontPage in MSDN subscriptions. Sharepoint
Designer provides much of the same functionality as Expression Web, and it
includes features for modifying and creating Sharepoint sites as well. As a
result of the transition, MSDN subscribers will get Microsoft's latest web
development product with a richer feature set than FrontPage.

Why not Expression Web?
MSDN is focused at delivering the tools and technologies developers and IT
Pros need. With this in mind, Visual Studio and Sharepoint Designer
products are a better fit for this audience and provide a broader array of
technology, including Sharepoint site customization which is a common task
for MSDN users. On the other hand, Expression Web, which is solely focused
at building standards based Web sites it more acutely targeted at Web
designers.

What can MSDN subscribers do to get access to Expression Web?
Current MSDN subscribers qualify for the upgrade to Expression Web by virtue
of ownership of FrontPage through previous MSDN benefits, so they would
qualify for the $99 upgrade.

Will Expression Blend be included in MSDN subscriptions?
We will announce plans for Expression Blend at Mix '07 on April 30, 2007.
--

So I guess we find out in April what the final decision will be. If they
choose to not include the Expression tools I really hope that they at least
provide upgrade pricing for MSDN subscribers.

--

Bill Henning
Actipro Software

WPF Wizard Control -
http://www.actiprosoftware.com/Produ...d/Default.aspx




"Horst Klein" <horst.klein@vitodata.ch> wrote in message
news:%23SZ1paoRHHA.3592@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> In real life Developers Use Blend. At least today.
> Me for example, I need blend to test my WFP custom controls.
> I use blend to see how they works in a designtool!
> If blend or parts of it will be inside the new Visual Studio its ok.
> Developers also need a tool to design GUIS ;-)
>
> Best regards
> Horst
>

On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:19:17 -0500, "Bill Henning"
<no_spam@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Why not Expression Web?
>MSDN is focused at delivering the tools and technologies developers and IT
>Pros need. With this in mind, Visual Studio and Sharepoint Designer
>products are a better fit for this audience and provide a broader array of
>technology, including Sharepoint site customization which is a common task
>for MSDN users. On the other hand, Expression Web, which is solely focused
>at building standards based Web sites it more acutely targeted at Web
>designers.
>
>What can MSDN subscribers do to get access to Expression Web?
>Current MSDN subscribers qualify for the upgrade to Expression Web by virtue
>of ownership of FrontPage through previous MSDN benefits, so they would
>qualify for the $99 upgrade.
>
>Will Expression Blend be included in MSDN subscriptions?
>We will announce plans for Expression Blend at Mix '07 on April 30, 2007.
>--


Well reading this, first thing that comes to my mind "I'm not aware of
a company that was ever successful with a product by telling customers
what is best for them, means making the choice FOR the customers"

If this is really the line MSFT will drive I'm really hoping that they
hit the tree very soon. Sharepoint Designer has a total different
development cycle than the Expression stuff, and they
very much do promote the great integration with VS Studio for
web development and at the same time don't make it available
to their most loyal group. And no I won't go for a 99$ upgrade
because I have Universal Subscription because I want an easy
access to the stuff as a developer. If they choose to make it more
troublesome (already their weird versions strategy) it will drive
developers to the competition. Enjoy ....
But as mentioned before over the last 12 months MSDN gets worse more
and more. Sometimes one get's the feeling that they have so many open
construction sites that they completely lost the overview...
We are getting closer to the day where it will be as with the MS
Licencing stuff, you need a week time to study what their offering is
and what editon of what might work together and what doesn't work.

> So I guess we find out in April what the final decision will be. If they
> choose to not include the Expression tools I really hope that they at
> least provide upgrade pricing for MSDN subscribers.

I already pay $4k /yr. (personal money, not expensed) for my MSDN premium
with Team Developer but I will not pay extra to upgrade to something that
should be included. I've already spent my extra cash on Adobe products for
Flash and Flex. Nice platforms. I doubt Expression will be included in
MSDN so I'm not going to bother, really. If my employer doesn't provide it
or require it I'm not going to spend extra money on it. A few more years
and I won't be spending anything on MS products, they've set a dangerous
precedent and I believe most future products will not be MSDN'ifyed so its
losing its value and apeal to me. I've already begun the transition to
alternate platforms and am finding there is a very large world outside of
..NET in the Java camp but I'm not religious about it one way or the other.


Thanks,
Shawn

> But as mentioned before over the last 12 months MSDN gets worse more
> and more. Sometimes one get's the feeling that they have so many open
> construction sites that they completely lost the overview...
> We are getting closer to the day where it will be as with the MS
> Licencing stuff, you need a week time to study what their offering is
> and what editon of what might work together and what doesn't work.

Sadly, it looks this way. My $4k/yr out of my pocket cash isn't getting me
the value I had expected it would be. To MS's defense, at the time I
purchased my subscription they never promised Expression* would be a part of
the subscription, but I had "assumed" it would be because new tools usually
are, especially when they are being promoted as the next greatest thing.
But as with the Team System fiasco, Team Foundation server fiasco, and now
the Expression Web fiasco, I believe I see the writing on the wall.

There are so many "personalities" to the MSDN subscription options and now
the Expression product line, that we just need to pony up more cash to get
anything despite paying $4k (and for some as much as $11k). Microsoft just
invents these new responsibilities (testers, developers, architectcs, db
developers, designers, etc.) in order to seperate it from core development
responsibilities so they can extract more money from us. I don't have the
more money to pay so I won't be using the new tools so they won't be adopted
into the marketplace by any of my efforts. If I'm alone in my decision,
so-be-it, but I'm not going to pull out a second mortgage on my house every
year just to practice my trade. At some point, the cost of being in the
trade exceeds the benefit gained from being in the trade.

I've already started my transition to alternate development platforms. My
eggs have been in the basket for far too long.


Thanks,
Shawn

Knowing MS, it'll be included with (and only with) an entirely new flavor of
Team System.

> Knowing MS, it'll be included with (and only with) an entirely new flavor
> of Team System.

MSDN Premium with Team Designer... ultimately guaranteeing that is receives
the least amount of MSDN exposure as possible. But they have quite clearly
stated in previous Expression rants that they don't care. Money is money,
business is business, and extortion is extortion. We'll just have to see.


Thanks,
Shawn

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:59:36 -0800, "Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> wrote:

>> Knowing MS, it'll be included with (and only with) an entirely new flavor
>> of Team System.
>
>MSDN Premium with Team Designer... ultimately guaranteeing that is receives
>the least amount of MSDN exposure as possible. But they have quite clearly
>stated in previous Expression rants that they don't care. Money is money,
>business is business, and extortion is extortion. We'll just have to see.
>
>
>Thanks,
>Shawn
>

Well we have to face it, this is not the same MSFT anymore. Zune has a
higher priority than the developers nowadays ;-)