Class Action

05-10-2008

Please do inform us when the current perceived assumption becomes truth.

--
...winston
ms-mvp mail

"Jack Gostl" <nomail@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:uOtFxqwsIHA.1316@xxxxxx

	Quote:
	> do you really think the wording of those paragraphs will stand up amidst that clamor?

05-10-2008

"Jack Gostl" <nomail@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:uojJy3tsIHA.4912@xxxxxx

Quote:

	Quote:
	>>> No, I purchased a product, a hotmail subscription, with the expectation >>> that >>> it would work a certain way for the duration of the subscription. In >>> fact, >>> recently Microsoft announced that the only way to use OE with hotmail, >>> was >>> to pay for it. I will be quite happy if Microsoft refunds the remainder >>> of >>> my subscription. If faced with refunding subscriptions for a few million >>> people they might bend a bit.

>>
>> I have read, somewhere, that Windows Live has relented, and extended the
>> cutoff date for turning off WebDAV support past June 30, 2008. The
>> extension
>> was "indefinite".
>>
>> Since you are willing to pay for email service, I'd recommend Fastmail.
>> For
>> a fee you get SMTP access, as well as IMAP access (free accounts are IMAP
>> only, no SMTP).
>>
>> http://fastmail.fm/
>>
>> I'd suggest getting the account, using MSOE to move your email from the
>> Windows Live Hotmail folders to the Fastmail IMAP folders; then, when you
>> are satisfied that all is working as desired, pursuing a refund from
>> Windows
>> Live for the unused portion of the subscription. Probably a lot cheaper,
>> and
>> easier, than a lawsuit.

>
> Except that I'm getting annoyed. Hotmail plus OE worked fine except for
> minor problems. Now, this program, WLM, regularly turns my PC into chopped
> liver. It locks up. It runs slow. I've had to do more reboots in the two
> weeks since I installed it than I did in the previous six months. On
> Thursday, WLM went completely nuts. After hours of trial and error, I had
> to uninstall and reinstall it, only to discover that the uninstall leaves
> things behind.
>
> Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly
> features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).
>
> I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing. I'm considering writing a short
> letter to the MS legal department, telling them that I paid for two
> hotmail accounts specifically because they told me that I needed to pay to
> use hotmail with OE. They are failing to deliver services that they paid
> for. The upgrade path they have mandated requires an upgrade in my
> hardware, involves a time consuming conversion and even then forces me to
> use a product with tons of defects.

If you act quickly you should be able to get a copy of Outlook 2003 for a
reasonable price. The newer version Outlook 2007 probably uses more memory
but it might work on your system too. You can access your Hotmail accounts
using the Outlook Connector, pop3 or the HTTP protocol used by Outlook
Express as long as it continues to be supported. The Outlook Connector can
be used with free Hotmail accounts. It can import mail from Outlook Express
and Windows Live Mail can export mail to Outlook. If you shop around you
will probably find a copy of one or the other version of Outlook for about
$50.00. The Outlook Connector is free for download from the Microsoft
Office download site. Another plus is the availability of spell and grammar
checking in thirty languages.

I am not saying that Outlook is completely without bugs but it is a
commercial released product and much less likely to turn your PC into
chopped liver than Windows Live Mail.

	Quote:
	> > If they get a couple of thousand letters like that, it will properly > adjust their perspective.

Try http://feedback.live.com. Then you won't have to buy a stamp.

	Quote:
	> > Unless magic happens, they have lost me for good. But it takes time to > migrate under the best of circumstances, not to mention that the hotmail > addresses are out there all over the place. > > BTW - one thing is for sure about WLM. Since I started posting here, my > junk mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its > too late.) >

You can't fault Microsoft for your own negligent action is exposing your
email address to hundreds of address harvesting bots. Thousands, maybe.

Cheers,

Earle

05-11-2008

On Sat, 10 May 2008 16:39:27 -0400, Jack Gostl wrote:

	Quote:
	> On Sat, 10 May 2008 11:54:10 -0700, N. Miller wrote:

<snip>

Quote:

	Quote:
	>> I'd suggest getting the account, using MSOE to move your email from the >> Windows Live Hotmail folders to the Fastmail IMAP folders; then, when you >> are satisfied that all is working as desired, pursuing a refund from >> Windows Live for the unused portion of the subscription. Probably a lot >> cheaper, and easier, than a lawsuit.

	Quote:
	> Except that I'm getting annoyed. Hotmail plus OE worked fine except for > minor problems. Now, this program, WLM, regularly turns my PC into chopped > liver. It locks up. It runs slow. I've had to do more reboots in the two > weeks since I installed it than I did in the previous six months. On > Thursday, WLM went completely nuts. After hours of trial and error, I had to > uninstall and reinstall it, only to discover that the uninstall leaves > things behind.

Works flawlessly on my HP Pavilion m7590n. Intel Pentium D 940 3.2GHz
processor. 2GB of RAM. Windows MCE 2005.

	Quote:
	> Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly > features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).

Please do.

	Quote:
	> I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing. I'm considering writing a short > letter to the MS legal department, telling them that I paid for two hotmail > accounts specifically because they told me that I needed to pay to use > hotmail with OE. They are failing to deliver services that they paid for. > The upgrade path they have mandated requires an upgrade in my hardware, > involves a time consuming conversion and even then forces me to use a > product with tons of defects. > > If they get a couple of thousand letters like that, it will properly adjust > their perspective.

That type of letter is called a, "Cartooney". Good for laughs by the
recipient, but not much else. You just write a friendly letter, to Microsoft
Tech Support, detailing your problems, but leave out the legal mumbo jumpbo.
Or you hire an attorney, and turn everything over to him; let him do the
talking to Microsoft.

	Quote:
	> Unless magic happens, they have lost me for good. But it takes time to > migrate under the best of circumstances, not to mention that the hotmail > addresses are out there all over the place.

The thing is, I did my "due diligence" when I signed up for my first Hotmail
account in 1999. I knew then that it wasn't the kind of email account to use
for serious business.

	Quote:
	> BTW - one thing is for sure about WLM. Since I started posting here, my junk > mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its too > late.)

When did you start posting on this server? I've been making NNTP posts since
1999. By 2001 I had learned about not using a working email address in the
"From:" field for NNTP posts.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

05-11-2008

On Sat, 10 May 2008 16:52:44 -0400, Jack Gostl wrote:

	Quote:
	> Actually, now that I think of it...

<snip>

	Quote:
	> ...(y)ou can file a complaint with the State of Washington Attorney General > online.

If I had something to complain about WRT any citizen, or corporation, in the
State of Washington, I'd consider it.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

05-11-2008

>> Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly

Quote:

	Quote:
	>> features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).

>
> Please do.

Let's start with my favorite. The DEL key will now delete an account. Its a
natural thing to click on the account and then look at the open messages. If
you aren't paying attention, and want to delete the "current message", and
hit the DEL/Enter, the account is gone. This is very frustrating since the
workflow encourages you to click on each account to check your messages. So
far I'ved accidentally deleted five accounts in two weeks on WLM vs ZERO in
four years on OE. That by itself is an indication of a problem.

Next, the cute way it flashes "Receiving Mail" in the lower right hand
corner. On OE, the icon was there full time, and if you clicked on it, you
got the progress window. In WLM, because the icon comes and oges, if you
don't pay attention, you wind up taking WLM offline.

In the progress window OE would tell you message x or y. WLM only tells you
"message x". Small, but annoying.

The actions of F5 have changed. In OE, you put the cursor in the message
list pane, and hit F5 and it would check mail in that account. WLM pops up
this box saying something about downloading folders.

In OE it was easy to determine the order of of accounts in the
accounts/folders windows. You just jiggled the name. In WLM, you have this
move up/move down that drives me nuts.

Now I can't pin this one down yet, but there are times when messages are
downloading but the "receiving mail" doesn't appear. I know because I wonder
why my outgoing mail is going nowhere, so I click on "Send All" and I find
myself looking at a progress bar showing incoming mail being received.

That's all for now, but I haven't had my coffee yet so my IQ is still
increasing slowly. Mostly the thing is do damned slow despite my 3Ghz lotsa
RAM machine. I don't mind bugs. I'm a software developer. I know that bugs
happen and that they get fixed, but the speed thing drives me nuts.

To be fair, the new news interface is an improvement. At least you don't
need three hands to delete a message.

05-11-2008

I have never seen anything that stated you must pay a fee to use hotmail via
OE or WL Mail. I have a free account and have had no issues since the
program was released sending/receiving mail in WL Mail. The software has
worked flawlessly for me. I wonder if there is something on your system
conflicting with WL Mail.

"Jack Gostl" <nomail@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:uojJy3tsIHA.4912@xxxxxx

Quote:

	Quote:
	>>> No, I purchased a product, a hotmail subscription, with the expectation >>> that >>> it would work a certain way for the duration of the subscription. In >>> fact, >>> recently Microsoft announced that the only way to use OE with hotmail, >>> was >>> to pay for it. I will be quite happy if Microsoft refunds the remainder >>> of >>> my subscription. If faced with refunding subscriptions for a few million >>> people they might bend a bit.

>>
>> I have read, somewhere, that Windows Live has relented, and extended the
>> cutoff date for turning off WebDAV support past June 30, 2008. The
>> extension
>> was "indefinite".
>>
>> Since you are willing to pay for email service, I'd recommend Fastmail.
>> For
>> a fee you get SMTP access, as well as IMAP access (free accounts are IMAP
>> only, no SMTP).
>>
>> http://fastmail.fm/
>>
>> I'd suggest getting the account, using MSOE to move your email from the
>> Windows Live Hotmail folders to the Fastmail IMAP folders; then, when you
>> are satisfied that all is working as desired, pursuing a refund from
>> Windows
>> Live for the unused portion of the subscription. Probably a lot cheaper,
>> and
>> easier, than a lawsuit.

>
> Except that I'm getting annoyed. Hotmail plus OE worked fine except for
> minor problems. Now, this program, WLM, regularly turns my PC into chopped
> liver. It locks up. It runs slow. I've had to do more reboots in the two
> weeks since I installed it than I did in the previous six months. On
> Thursday, WLM went completely nuts. After hours of trial and error, I had
> to uninstall and reinstall it, only to discover that the uninstall leaves
> things behind.
>
> Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly
> features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).
>
> I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing. I'm considering writing a short
> letter to the MS legal department, telling them that I paid for two
> hotmail accounts specifically because they told me that I needed to pay to
> use hotmail with OE. They are failing to deliver services that they paid
> for. The upgrade path they have mandated requires an upgrade in my
> hardware, involves a time consuming conversion and even then forces me to
> use a product with tons of defects.
>
> If they get a couple of thousand letters like that, it will properly
> adjust their perspective.
>
> Unless magic happens, they have lost me for good. But it takes time to
> migrate under the best of circumstances, not to mention that the hotmail
> addresses are out there all over the place.
>
> BTW - one thing is for sure about WLM. Since I started posting here, my
> junk mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its
> too late.)
>
>
>

05-11-2008

On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:50:02 -0400, Jack Gostl wrote:

Quote:

	Quote:
	>>> Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly >>> features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).

Quote:

	Quote:
	>> Please do.

	Quote:
	> Let's start with my favorite. The DEL key will now delete an account. Its a > natural thing to click on the account and then look at the open messages. If > you aren't paying attention, and want to delete the "current message", and > hit the DEL/Enter, the account is gone.

That is truly serious; except that I can't replicate it. If I open a
message, the 'Delete', in any combination, key has no effect whatsoever. If
I just leave a message selected in the list pane, and read the message in
"Preview", the 'Delete' key just deletes the message. A combination would
have to have another key pressed first. "DEL/Enter" immediately performs the
function of the 'Delete' key. 'Enter+Delete' immediately opens the message
highlighted in the list pane. 'Shift+Delete' pops up a "Are you sure?"
window.

	Quote:
	> This is very frustrating since the workflow encourages you to click on each > account to check your messages. So far I'ved accidentally deleted five accounts > in two weeks on WLM vs ZERO in four years on OE. That by itself is an indication > of a problem.

If I press my 'Delete' key with an account selected, but no specific message
selected, I get a pop-up window asking if I am sure that I want to delete
the selected account. I can see the problem with that, since a
'Shift+Delete' would normally bypass that pop-up.

OTOH, I am in the habit of selecting messages before requesting any actions,
so I missed the problem until I tried to replicate it.

I wonder if that has been "bugged"? This is a most serious bug, and
Microsoft needs to address it.

	Quote:
	> Next, the cute way it flashes "Receiving Mail" in the lower right hand > corner. On OE, the icon was there full time, and if you clicked on it, you > got the progress window. In WLM, because the icon comes and oges, if you > don't pay attention, you wind up taking WLM offline.

Very minor problem. Another click and you go back online.

	Quote:
	> In the progress window OE would tell you message x or y. WLM only tells you > "message x". Small, but annoying.

Very small, less of a problem than the previous one.

	Quote:
	> The actions of F5 have changed. In OE, you put the cursor in the message > list pane, and hit F5 and it would check mail in that account. WLM pops up > this box saying something about downloading folders.

But it fetched the email when I tried it. Actually, I can't even make it
work, as you describe, in MS Outlook Express. I get no indication, in MSOE,
that the account is even downloading messages when I press the F5 key.

Quote: