Amen to the Amen.

For one or two users hosted exchange is a deal. For 10+ is seems to be a
monthly charge that, projected over the life of the system exceeds the incremental
cost of adding exchange (or some mail server) to a network.

This is more than a math question, however, factor in "owning' your own data,
ability to use said data when the internet is off line, and subtract the
agro of maintaining your own mail server of whatever ilk, and imo, for an
orginization of more than just a few users local mail wins over hosted mail.

-
Larry
Please post the resolution to your
issue so others may benefit
-
Get Your SBS Health Check at
www.sbsbpa.com

> Amen.
>
> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@newsgroup-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
> news:Oe0xyrD9KHA.5476@newsgroup
>

>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@newsgroup> wrote in
>> message news:u93fU#78KHA.1892@newsgroup
>>

>>> BPOS is basically RPC over HTTPS so its nothing new.
>>>
>>> and Because of the cost difference there will be more an more people
>>> moving
>>> and yes you are right Exchange on site will be dead IMO soon.
>>> And there is a lot of kick from IT
>>> But Money talks
>>> Financially it's too expensive to run an exchange server..
>>> I predict in 4-5 years exchange will no longer be onsite...
>>> Russ

>> I keep seeing this argument. Have you actually worked the numbers?
>> It's almost impossible to get a price quote from the BPOS site but in
>> one place they mention $10.00 per month. I have also heard $5.00 per
>> month. Let's look at a site with 30 users. At $10.00 per month that
>> is $3,600.00 per year. At $5.00 it's $1,800.00 per year. Most sites
>> with 30 users will still need a server on site. They will need a DC
>> and probably a file server, print server, and WSUS. For sure they
>> will have a LOB app that needs a server. Given they already have at
>> least one server and the associated costs of maintaining the hardware
>> are you saying the actual maintenance of Exchange for 30 users is
>> more than somewhere between $1,800 and $3,600 per year? Even if you
>> add SharePoint in to the equation none of my clients spend anywhere
>> near that on Exchange/SharePoint maintenance. Once Exchange and
>> SharePoint are up and running it doesn't take a lot of time to
>> maintain them for 30 users. For most of my clients I doubt I spend
>> two hours a month on Exchange/SharePoint. Most of their costs are
>> server/workstation depreciation, LOB app maintenance, networking
>> hardware, and workstation maintenance. None of that goes away with
>> BPOS. I can think of several reasons for using BPOS. Lower costs is
>> not one of them.
>>
>> --
>> Kerry Brown
>> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
>> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

The one place I see a plus with the cloud and e-mail is FOPE (ForeFront
Online Protection for Exchange) or equivalent services such as
ExchangeDefender. Here you're keeping the vast majority of the c-r-a-p off
my server and off my bandwidth, while not inhibiting my ability to get mail
if I suddenly can't use your service. (All it takes is a 10 second logon to
ZoneEdit to change the MX record.) And, at least with ExchangeDefender,
you're providing a valuable backup service in case my server is down (or
unreachable) for somereason.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/russel




"Larry Struckmeyer[SBS-MVP]" <lstruckmeyer@newsgroup-wizards.com> wrote in message
news:4e683515fabf8ccc236fcada328@newsgroup

> Amen to the Amen.
> For one or two users hosted exchange is a deal. For 10+ is seems to be a
> monthly charge that, projected over the life of the system exceeds the
> incremental cost of adding exchange (or some mail server) to a network.
>
> This is more than a math question, however, factor in "owning' your own
> data, ability to use said data when the internet is off line, and subtract
> the agro of maintaining your own mail server of whatever ilk, and imo, for
> an orginization of more than just a few users local mail wins over hosted
> mail.
>
> -
> Larry
> Please post the resolution to your
> issue so others may benefit
> -
> Get Your SBS Health Check at
> www.sbsbpa.com
>
>

>> Amen.
>>
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@newsgroup-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:Oe0xyrD9KHA.5476@newsgroup
>>

>>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@newsgroup> wrote in
>>> message news:u93fU#78KHA.1892@newsgroup
>>>
>>>> BPOS is basically RPC over HTTPS so its nothing new.
>>>>
>>>> and Because of the cost difference there will be more an more people
>>>> moving
>>>> and yes you are right Exchange on site will be dead IMO soon.
>>>> And there is a lot of kick from IT
>>>> But Money talks
>>>> Financially it's too expensive to run an exchange server..
>>>> I predict in 4-5 years exchange will no longer be onsite...
>>>> Russ
>>> I keep seeing this argument. Have you actually worked the numbers?
>>> It's almost impossible to get a price quote from the BPOS site but in
>>> one place they mention $10.00 per month. I have also heard $5.00 per
>>> month. Let's look at a site with 30 users. At $10.00 per month that
>>> is $3,600.00 per year. At $5.00 it's $1,800.00 per year. Most sites
>>> with 30 users will still need a server on site. They will need a DC
>>> and probably a file server, print server, and WSUS. For sure they
>>> will have a LOB app that needs a server. Given they already have at
>>> least one server and the associated costs of maintaining the hardware
>>> are you saying the actual maintenance of Exchange for 30 users is
>>> more than somewhere between $1,800 and $3,600 per year? Even if you
>>> add SharePoint in to the equation none of my clients spend anywhere
>>> near that on Exchange/SharePoint maintenance. Once Exchange and
>>> SharePoint are up and running it doesn't take a lot of time to
>>> maintain them for 30 users. For most of my clients I doubt I spend
>>> two hours a month on Exchange/SharePoint. Most of their costs are
>>> server/workstation depreciation, LOB app maintenance, networking
>>> hardware, and workstation maintenance. None of that goes away with
>>> BPOS. I can think of several reasons for using BPOS. Lower costs is
>>> not one of them.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

>
>

Predictable Reoccurring Costs

Companies Want Predictable Costs
That's why some lease Vehicles and Rent Buildings

They don't like the UH Our server went down
it is going to cost us xxx and so much in Labor to fix.

You Pay for what you use, which is the cloud model.

Ramping up and down in this changing world
is a big Concern for many companies
Buying new hardware software is not a good cost model.
and having it when you don't need it is not good either.

The Skill Level to Administrate Exchange server?
Vs BPOS?

I think that is an easy question
and how much do you need to pay the people?

IT People is an expense that people don't want to pay..
If someone with mouse skills can create email accounts?

I know a lot of IT people that are Scared on this, and Trust me
There is a LOT of IT push back for a LOT of reasons
(Their JOB)

But Money rules in business...

Data, Microsoft has a SLA that covers data financially.
(So Unless you have insurance on your exchange server.)

Also Google is the only Company that says you don't own your Data.

The cost of Migration, Skilled Labor, Server hardware
Software Licensing, Backups etc.

This Ads up to more than the $5.00 or 10 for exchange.
For 10 you get SharePoint Communicator and Live meeting.
(Web ex is $45/user a month by it self BTW)

When They Hook Communicator with Phone calls
The Choices are even MORE Cost Effective.
(Voice Mail Via Email, Call to get Messages etc etc.)

This is the future of Cloud.
ZERO Maintenance, Total Control.

Coca Cola with 75,000 People last year migrated over to BPOS
Now with the Proprietary information of Coca Cola
(That is a Multi BILLION Dollar Company)

Do you think they would go to BPOS if it wasn't Secure
and Cost effective?

I personally don't think Coca-Cola is a Company that would make a mistake
with 75k users and their multi Billion dollar company..

Like I said time will tell
Right now the House is Dealing the Cards
I'm betting with the house vs against it.
(The House always Wins)

Steve Ballmer Quote "We are Betting the Farm on Cloud"
I'm jumping on...
Each one of us has to decide where he or she wants to go.
Yup The world is Changing Kids

Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
MCP, MCPS, MCNPS, SBSC
Small Business Server/Computer Support - www.SBITS.Biz
Question or Second Opinion - www.PersonalITConsultant.com
BPOS - Microsoft Online Services - www.BPOSMadeEasy.com


"Larry Struckmeyer[SBS-MVP]" <lstruckmeyer@newsgroup-wizards.com> wrote in message
news:4e683515fabf8ccc236fcada328@newsgroup

> Amen to the Amen.
> For one or two users hosted exchange is a deal. For 10+ is seems to be a
> monthly charge that, projected over the life of the system exceeds the
> incremental cost of adding exchange (or some mail server) to a network.
>
> This is more than a math question, however, factor in "owning' your own
> data, ability to use said data when the internet is off line, and subtract
> the agro of maintaining your own mail server of whatever ilk, and imo, for
> an orginization of more than just a few users local mail wins over hosted
> mail.
>
> -
> Larry
> Please post the resolution to your
> issue so others may benefit
> -
> Get Your SBS Health Check at
> www.sbsbpa.com
>
>

>> Amen.
>>
>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@newsgroup-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message
>> news:Oe0xyrD9KHA.5476@newsgroup
>>

>>> "Russ SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]" <russ@newsgroup> wrote in
>>> message news:u93fU#78KHA.1892@newsgroup
>>>
>>>> BPOS is basically RPC over HTTPS so its nothing new.
>>>>
>>>> and Because of the cost difference there will be more an more people
>>>> moving
>>>> and yes you are right Exchange on site will be dead IMO soon.
>>>> And there is a lot of kick from IT
>>>> But Money talks
>>>> Financially it's too expensive to run an exchange server..
>>>> I predict in 4-5 years exchange will no longer be onsite...
>>>> Russ
>>> I keep seeing this argument. Have you actually worked the numbers?
>>> It's almost impossible to get a price quote from the BPOS site but in
>>> one place they mention $10.00 per month. I have also heard $5.00 per
>>> month. Let's look at a site with 30 users. At $10.00 per month that
>>> is $3,600.00 per year. At $5.00 it's $1,800.00 per year. Most sites
>>> with 30 users will still need a server on site. They will need a DC
>>> and probably a file server, print server, and WSUS. For sure they
>>> will have a LOB app that needs a server. Given they already have at
>>> least one server and the associated costs of maintaining the hardware
>>> are you saying the actual maintenance of Exchange for 30 users is
>>> more than somewhere between $1,800 and $3,600 per year? Even if you
>>> add SharePoint in to the equation none of my clients spend anywhere
>>> near that on Exchange/SharePoint maintenance. Once Exchange and
>>> SharePoint are up and running it doesn't take a lot of time to
>>> maintain them for 30 users. For most of my clients I doubt I spend
>>> two hours a month on Exchange/SharePoint. Most of their costs are
>>> server/workstation depreciation, LOB app maintenance, networking
>>> hardware, and workstation maintenance. None of that goes away with
>>> BPOS. I can think of several reasons for using BPOS. Lower costs is
>>> not one of them.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kerry Brown
>>> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/

>
>

In article <#ytTeGF9KHA.3176@newsgroup>,
Charlie@newsgroup says...

> The one place I see a plus with the cloud and e-mail is FOPE (ForeFront
> Online Protection for Exchange) or equivalent services such as
> ExchangeDefender. Here you're keeping the vast majority of the c-r-a-p off
> my server and off my bandwidth, while not inhibiting my ability to get mail
> if I suddenly can't use your service. (All it takes is a 10 second logon to
> ZoneEdit to change the MX record.) And, at least with ExchangeDefender,
> you're providing a valuable backup service in case my server is down (or
> unreachable) for somereason.
>

I'm still not sure the cost savings or backup is worth it.

As an example, I install firewalls for all businesses, no exceptions.
Those firewall have inexpensive Anti-Spam and Anti-Virus services for
SMTP/POP3, so the protection is there and take care of before reaching
the server. Since you still have to have AV software on your laptop or
server for files, that won't change anything.

As for the backup - well, if you're using Exchange in cached mode you
already have a backup that you can export. As for backup email service,
assuming you already own a domain, most come with cheap email service in
the domain name, and it should already be a Priority 20 MX record with
your own server being a Priority 0 or 10 MX record - you should also
have Exchange set to pull email from the backup mail location. There are
also other methods that are very cheap.

No, there is a cost that people have not talked about. I have a dozen
servers here, running 24/7, have a couple generators, UPS's, etc...

One of my real costs is the Electricity to run the UPS, Switch, Firewall
and Server for a small shop, it amounts to about $37/mo at our local
rates, that doesn't include the additional electric cost for the AC BTU
load. There is also the additional cost of Business Insurance, also
costing about $20/mo per customers server solution.

I looked at a solution from GoDaddy for Hosted Exchange, about
$60/month, and they still needed a file server in their office, still
needed a UPS, still needed remote access to computers.... It's just not
economical in the long run to use external solutions when you have a
reasonable power/internet solution available.

--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

In article <8F412BAC-0AA8-4C76-B3D9-058104B60CC0@newsgroup>,
russ@newsgroup says...

> This is the future of Cloud.
> ZERO Maintenance, Total Control.
>

I don't believe it's Zero maintenance and I don't believe the users have
total control, not for one second.

I managed a company, 3 shifts, 70 active licenses, dozens of printers,
16 fax lines, 5 servers, with SBS as the foundation, on 8 hours per
month average over 3 years and did almost all of it remotely.

It's all in how you build the solution, at least in my opinion.

I have many clients that I've never met, never been to their locations,
managed for years, and they have a chap they call in when I need a hand,
once every 8-12 months, to replace a drive/PSU, and that's about the
extent of it - all of these run 24/7, no malware, clean machines, and
are designed as business machines with people that understand that
workers do not have a right to internet access or personal email or
personal devices on the company network.

--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

The world is changing...

That's all I'm saying
We can debate all we want

It's up to the people who write the checks to make the decisions...

Best wishes to all...
Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
MCP, MCPS, MCNPS, SBSC
Small Business Server/Computer Support - www.SBITS.Biz
Question or Second Opinion - www.PersonalITConsultant.com
BPOS - Microsoft Online Services - www.BPOSMadeEasy.com


"Leythos" <spam999free@newsgroup> wrote in message
news:MPG.2658c4364680529a98a36b@newsgroup

> In article <8F412BAC-0AA8-4C76-B3D9-058104B60CC0@newsgroup>,
> russ@newsgroup says...

>> This is the future of Cloud.
>> ZERO Maintenance, Total Control.
>>

>
> I don't believe it's Zero maintenance and I don't believe the users have
> total control, not for one second.
>
> I managed a company, 3 shifts, 70 active licenses, dozens of printers,
> 16 fax lines, 5 servers, with SBS as the foundation, on 8 hours per
> month average over 3 years and did almost all of it remotely.
>
> It's all in how you build the solution, at least in my opinion.
>
> I have many clients that I've never met, never been to their locations,
> managed for years, and they have a chap they call in when I need a hand,
> once every 8-12 months, to replace a drive/PSU, and that's about the
> extent of it - all of these run 24/7, no malware, clean machines, and
> are designed as business machines with people that understand that
> workers do not have a right to internet access or personal email or
> personal devices on the company network.
>
> --
> You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
> voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
> Trust yourself.
> spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

Microsoft is holding the cards
And dealing them...
and you are betting against them....

I'm not going to argue I'm just betting on the House....

Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
MCP, MCPS, MCNPS, SBSC
Small Business Server/Computer Support - www.SBITS.Biz
BPOS - Microsoft Online Services - www.Microsoft-Online-Services.com


"Leythos" <spam999free@newsgroup> wrote in message
news:MPG.2658d1d7b67e4eab98a36d@newsgroup

> In article <eLp8XvG9KHA.980@newsgroup>,
> russ@newsgroup says...

>> It's up to the people who write the checks to make the decisions...
>>

>
> But it's UP TO US to give them good information and to dispute the lies
> and deceptions of marketing.
>
> --
> You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
> voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
> Trust yourself.
> spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

Just like people didn't believe HD Backups would replace TAPES
and they all said BS, BS, BS, Tape will never die!

Times change...
Russ

--
Russell Grover - SBITS.Biz [SBS-MVP]
MCP, MCPS, MCNPS, SBSC
Small Business Server/Computer Support - www.SBITS.Biz
BPOS - Microsoft Online Services - www.Microsoft-Online-Services.com


"Leythos" <spam999free@newsgroup> wrote in message
news:MPG.2658d1d7b67e4eab98a36d@newsgroup

> In article <eLp8XvG9KHA.980@newsgroup>,
> russ@newsgroup says...

>> It's up to the people who write the checks to make the decisions...
>>

>
> But it's UP TO US to give them good information and to dispute the lies
> and deceptions of marketing.
>
> --
> You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
> voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
> Trust yourself.
> spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

In article <64A2472A-CC40-4F0A-B8D5-796351A11BD3@newsgroup>,
russ@newsgroup says...

> I'm not going to argue I'm just betting on the House....
>

And if customers don't buy into their card came, because we give them
all the details, the costs, the actual issues of not having their data,
then MS may just have to fold that game or find people using other
solutions.

When they decide to stop selling SBS and other solutions that allow
businesses to keep their data locally, well, that's when I'll start
pushing other solutions (read that as Non-MS).

--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)

In article <C906BD05-199C-44C1-B2CB-C0E87299A2A6@newsgroup>,
russ@newsgroup says...

>
> Just like people didn't believe HD Backups would replace TAPES
> and they all said BS, BS, BS, Tape will never die!

I don't know any of those peole. HD backup is still fragile, but, due to
the fact that tape cost and speed as not kept up with the drives and
users masses of data, it's not economical.

You might want to let people using Seagate Backup with tape drives know
about tape being dead - many places that fall under Sarbanes Oxly are
still mandated to keep many full backups, and disks are not economical
for that amount of backup media in storage.


--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam999free@newsgroup (remove 999 for proper email address)