Vista Tutorial - Major Troubles: Power Supply or Corrupt Install??

Hi all -- I hope this is the correct place to post. I've had multiple
issues and trying to narrow it down:

1) I have a homebuilt PC with Vista 32 Ultimate, and was trying to
install a second RAID 5 for data storage (my OS is *not* on a RAID
drive, and I do have an operational RAID 1 set-up). The Asus mb uses
the nVidia nForce 570 chipset for this.

2) Initial symptoms: I was having difficulties getting the system to
recognize the new drives when RAID was enabled on the SATA ports. This
may have been drive specific. Hardware manager showed them, but the
nVidia control panel dw would not launch and the Windows Disk
Management it would hang on "Connecting to Virtual Disks...' [can't
remember the exact phrase]. Also a similar random issues with
launching IE when trying to diagnose -- the processes for both nVidia
and IE showed active, but the windows would not show up (I would get a
brief hourglass).

I the process of trying to narrow the problem, I had a BSOD, with some
mention of Power on the screen. I realize now I may have overloaded
the PS (400W) by having too many drives on it (I know, I know...)

3) Current Symptoms: After this occurred the above symptoms got much
worse. Can't launch IE at all (shows connecting with blank screen --
though other programs such as Skype do still get an internet
connection). Can't power down. Disk Manager does not work at all (even
now with RAID disabled which fixed it prior). File manager does work,
as does control panel. Furthermore, the system reboots every 15-20 min
(I have yet to see the screen when it does this so no more info than
that). Basically I can boot, but am severley crippled.

4) I have tried to repair from install CD (no errors reported). I have
also tried system restore from a week prior. No effect.

My question: Could these symptoms (besides the obvious rebooting) be
caused by a bad power supply that I overloaded, or does it look like a
full clean install (which I *really* don't want to do until I rule out
everything else). Any ideas? Thanks for anything you can offer.....

Hi Tyrenta,

This does indeed sound like an inadequate power supply (PSU). From point 1)
of your post, I infer that you have at least 6 hard drives (min of 3 for RAID
5, min of 2 for RAID 1 and 1 for your OS). To confirm this, restart your
machine and enter your BIOS (refer to the motherboard manual). Select the tab
that shows system health (voltage levels, temperatures, fan speeds). Leave it
on that page for a while. What voltage readings are you getting? Try opening
and closing your optical drive(s). What happens to the voltages then? What I
am looking for here is any voltages which fall below the ATX specification.
If any of these voltages are low, then it could explain your problems, and
you will need to obtain and install a higher capacity supply. I include some
figures for your convenience. Note that I haven't included negative supply
voltages. These were only used in older systems.
Dwarf

ATX specification voltage ranges (all tolerances +/- 5%)

Voltage Rail Minimum Maximum
3.3VDC 3.14V 3.47V
5.0VDC 4.75V 5.25V
12.0VDC 11.40V 12.60V
5.0VSB 4.75V 5.25V (Stand By)

"Tyrenta" wrote:

On Mar 12, 5:30 pm, Dwarf <Dw...@xxxxxx> wrote:Thank you -- I'm at work now and will check as soon as I get home. I
did unplug all the new drives to see if unloading the PS would fix the
problems, but it did not. So two questions:

1) is it possible to 'blow' a PS by overloading it (I assume it is --
the currrent supply is a 400w Antec smartpower 2 I think).
2) even if I correct the PS -- it still seems my Windows install has
corrupted somehow, or could that all be explained by the PS?

thanks much for your assistance

Hi Tyrenta,

Just a bit more information on power consumption for you. This is taken from
pp1266-1267 of 'Scott Mueller's Upgrading and repairing PCs, 18th Edition'. I
give you 3 figures. The first is the lowest value, the second the highest,
and the third the average. All values are based on the number of components
that I assume are in your system. As you can see from the table below, a 400W
supply is insufficient for your system. Even at an efficiency of 85%, your
supply will only deliver 340W. This is acceptable only if you use low-end
components. At the lower efficiency of 65%, your supply delivers only 260W.
Even with low-end components, this is insufficient to power your system
correctly. Bear in mind that the figures quoted for Hard Disk and Optical are
running figures, and that the start up figures for these items is higher.
Assume an efficiency of 65% for your PSU, and add 10% to the totals in the
table below. If you are using average rated components, I recommend a supply
of 650W.
Dwarf

Component (low) (high) (average)
--------------------------------------------
Motherboard 50W 75W 62.5W
Processor 25W 150W 87.5W
RAM 10W 30W 20.0W
Graphics 25W 200W 112.5W
Hard Disk 90W 180W 135.0W
Optical 30W 70W 50.0W
Cooling Fan 6W 10W 8.0W
--------------------------------------------
Totals 236W 715W 375.5W
--------------------------------------------
Supply 400W 1210W 635.5W
--------------------------------------------

"Tyrenta" wrote:

In article <DF44A77E-A389-4A6F-A798-D2BD970D6B20@xxxxxx>,
Dwarf <Dwarf@xxxxxx> wrote:Well, that's just silly. There must be something wrong with your
figures because even a decent 380 watt PS is perfectly adequate for an
ordinary desktop system.

For instance, I make an 80mm case fan to be 12v x .15a = 1.8 watts.
Are you figuring startup current as your steady state? That would only
apply to motor driven parts like fans and drives. That's momentary and
the other components aren't drawing anywhere near peak when it happens.
And what x86 CPU uses 150 watts? Max current for an AMD X2 is 89. Some
of the Intel quads get as high as 130...
My figures are closer to 250 peak 180 steady state... So a
300-350w power supply should be fine for normal usage...

On Mar 13, 8:37 am, w...@xxxxxx (the wharf rat) wrote:Thank you both -- I think the problem (or dumb move) was trying to
replace a 2-disk data (non-OS) RAID with a 3-disk RAID, so to
transition I actually had 7 (5 RAID + OS + a back-up IDE) drives
running, but ideally that would drop back to 4 or 5 when I'm done. The
largest supply I could get locally (Circuit City) is a 500W, so I'm
hoping that would be sufficient, and I could try to disable a few
components (the IDE, and possibly the optical) while building the
RAID.

the rest of the system is fairly standard by todays compents -- AMD
3800+, 3gb RAM, middle line video card, 1 optical drive, 2 case fans

could a low power state have caused the software issues (inability to
lauch several components), or likely I need to do a complete reinstall?

Hi wharf rat,

As stated in my previous post, these figures are based on those taken from
pp1266-1267 of 'Scott Mueller's Upgrading and Repairing PCs, 18th Edition'.
As for the figures themselves I have assumed 2 sticks of RAM, 6 (Six) Hard
Disks, 2 Optical Drives and 2 Cooling Fans. Obviously, there is only 1
motherboard, processor and graphics card in this equation. I have implied
this from Tyrenta's first post in this thread. Looking at your figures, you
appear to be using only 1 hard disk whereas my calculations were based on 6.
Power supplies are rated at their maximum output and they can only maintain
this rating for very short bursts. The continual rating of supplies is
considerably less, typically 65%-85% of the maximum rated output. To ensure a
reasonable margin for supply capacity, assume an efficiency of 65% and add
10% to the component power consumption figures as in my previous post. Using
this criteria, whilst you might be OK running on this supply, there is little
spare capacity available. Using your figures, I get a system total of 220.4W.
Adding 10% gives 242.44W. Using a 300W supply at 85%, ie supplying 255W,
there isn't enough capacity available for another hard drive. At 65%
efficiency, ie 195W, this supply isn't capable of sustaining this system. The
350W model is better, but not all that much. At 85%, 350W equates to 297.5W
and at 65% it equates to 227.5W which is LESS than the 300W model at 85%.
Personally, for your system using the figures you quoted, I wouldn't be happy
running it with anything less than a 400W supply.
Dwarf

"the wharf rat" wrote:

Hi Tyrenta and wharf rat,

Apologies, but I have made a mistake in my calculations. For average
components, the total should be 475.5W with an 805W supply. Obviously the
figures of the PSU seem large, but bear in mind that I am adding 10% to the
power consumption figure and assuming a PSU efficiency of 65% and that you
want room for expanding your system. Another reason for such a seemingly high
rated PSU is for operational stability - glitches on the mains supply caused
by other equipment in your house can cause systems to reboot for no apparent
reason other than the output on the 'power good' line to fall momentarily
below the threshold, a phenomenon known as 'brownout'. Even if your machine
stays on and doesn't reboot, this fluctuation in power can cause data
corruption and loss. This is particularly prevalent under high load
conditions, especially where the PSU has insufficient reserve capacity. Bear
in mind that the rating quoted for a PSU is the total theoretical output and
that the rating for an individual power rail will be lower. If you exceed the
power rating for a power rail, then you are likely to encounter problems,
even if the total PSU wattage available is ample for your system. It is
important when thinking about upgrading your PSU to consider not only the
total power requirement in your system (and to factor in some level of
redundancy), but also the specific power requirements for the different power
rails. This is especially true of the 12V rail since it is that rail that
supplies the power for all the drive and fan motors in the system. A lot of
PSUs seem to come with a whole multitude of outlets and some people make the
mistake of assuming they can have a device on each outlet. This is a mistake,
as all but the highest quality (and priced) PSU will not be able to cope with
such a load. In general, I recommend no more than 2 devices per supply line
(for hard disks) or 3 (for optical and floppy drives). Case fans should be on
their own line, but if you do need to use a power splitter then split the
supply to the optical/floppy drives rather than the hard drives because an
optical/floppy drive is only used ocassionally whereas a hard drive is in
constant use.
Dwarf

"Tyrenta" wrote:

Hi Tyrenta,

You should be OK with a 500W PSU PROVIDING that it is of good quality and is
capable of running at an efficiency of 85%. My calculations in my previous
post were based on a PSU efficiency of 65%. However, I would advise you to
back up your RAID data to an external USB hard drive (move your internal IDE
hard drive to an external USB enclosure) and then install your RAID5 array
without having the other array present. That way, you will only have 4 hard
drives installed as opposed to 7 (I assumed 6, but didn't know about the 7th
until you mentioned it in your post). Not only would there be a reduction in
the noise level of your system, but there would also be a decrease in power
consumption (from 7 x 22.5=157.5W to 4 x 22.5=90W, a difference of 67.5W),
thus you will not be overloading the power rails (as you might well be if you
have both arrays installed at the same time). In addition, there will be less
heat generated by your system. You can then format your new array and load
the data onto it from your external USB backup. Providing that you take your
time over this procedure, you should have no trouble in setting up your new
array. Even if you do end up reinstalling Vista, your data should be safe on
the backup that you made. Applications will then need to be reinstalled from
the original media.
Dwarf

"Tyrenta" wrote:

In article <94C12549-4944-4C18-9015-32664F297F9B@xxxxxx>,
Dwarf <Dwarf@xxxxxx> wrote:Well, Scott Mueller's wrong too then :-) Power consumption
figures are published by manufacturers so there's no need to guess.

The problem with 4 drives isn't going to be running them it's going
to be starting them. Best to stagger the startup times. That's easy to do
with scsi but harder with sata. The bios on the motherboard or addin
controller may support it, or you can rig it by holding pin 11 on the sata
power cable high.

That being said even a 350 should have no trouble spinning up and
holding 4 drives. IMHO.
A modern power supply runs at >80%. Unless you buy crappy
power supplies.