Vista - Re: Why all the headache?

04-28-2008

I don't speak for Microsoft and would never want to. I've been viruently
anti-Microsoft and so can understand and respect the extremes of feeling,
but have no interest in anything beyond technical matters. As such:

Hey, you didn't mention what specific problems you're running into. What
are those?

If you're asking generally "Why can't Microsoft predict each and every
conflict and solve this in advance?" - that's a fascinating challenge.
That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help
minimize conflicts. Service packs and QFEs are a chance to address issues
that people didn't run into previous to release. I'll give a case in point,
a fix I worked on - some digital camera makers use a strange AVI writer that
uses a strange data format. These aren't common and thus this wasn't
generally noticed in the beta. But it was noticed post-Vista RTM (Vista RTM
actually enforced data types, which broke their ... interesting writer) and
I worked with the right people to get that addressed in SP1.

So: if you're running into some problem, it's most likely that you have some
interesting and unknown issue, the specifics of which would be critical to
getting that problem resolved moving forward.

Cheers,
-Zach
--
Speaking for myself only.
See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
--
"Joe" <Joe@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4CC8BA3C-3A8D-41FD-8656-54C61FBAD6E2@xxxxxx

Quote:

> Could someone please tell me why Microsoft would release a product knowing
> that there are unresolved issues with the product? What is the point of
> doing
> Beta testing if you are not going to find all the bugs, fix them and then
> release the product? I'm not trying to be flippant(sp?) here. This is a
> serious question. With all the money, man/woman power and brain power
> available to Microsoft for R&D, why is it so hard to put out a product
> that
> works from the word go? I don't want to become Microsoft certified in
> order
> to keep my computer running. I shouldn't have to fool with my computers
> registry so that I can install an update to fix a problem that they knew
> about before they sold it to me. Come on Bill. I thought the whole purpose
> of
> technology advancing was to make our life easier. I want to insert disk
> and
> push play. I'm not talking about dumbing things down. I'm talking about
> Microsoft developing their products, making sure they work and then
> selling
> them to us. Interesting concept, huh? Would you care to Beta test that?

04-29-2008

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"
<zachd@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

> that's a fascinating challenge.
>That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help
>minimize conflicts.

This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
savannah.

JD

04-29-2008

"John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:7t8d14t742icfuksstofko1j2aao9obhn7@xxxxxx

Quote:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"
> <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote:
>

Quote:

>> that's a fascinating challenge.
>>That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help
>>minimize conflicts.

>
> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
> savannah.
>
> JD

So they did a major upgrade already? LOL

04-29-2008

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon"
<gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

>> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
>> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
>> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
>> savannah.

>
>No bugs here matey......

So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat
when playing back an MP3 ?

JD

04-29-2008

What specific bugs/issues are you referring to? Phantom issues aren't
actually bugs. =) Hoarding information about rumored issues unfortunately
makes it challenging to ensure that these strange issues can be addressed if
needed in the future.

But then again, maybe that's just me. I like fixing stuff and making things
better. =)

--
Speaking for myself only.
See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
--
"John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:7t8d14t742icfuksstofko1j2aao9obhn7@xxxxxx

Quote:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"
> <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote:
>

Quote:

>> that's a fascinating challenge.
>>That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help
>>minimize conflicts.

>
> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
> savannah.
>
> JD

04-29-2008

Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due
to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen.

--
Speaking for myself only.
See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
--
"John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:11pd14hju1d8an4gtvsl2lsvch7l04l893@xxxxxx

Quote:

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon"
> <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote:
>

Quote:

>>> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
>>> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
>>> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
>>> savannah.

>>
>>No bugs here matey......

>
> So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat
> when playing back an MP3 ?
>
> JD

04-29-2008

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:11:38 +0100, "Gordon"
<gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

>"John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message
>news:11pd14hju1d8an4gtvsl2lsvch7l04l893@xxxxxx

Quote:

>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon"
>> <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>

Quote:

>>>> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers
>>>> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more
>>>> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African
>>>> savannah.
>>>
>>>No bugs here matey......

>>
>> So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat
>> when playing back an MP3 ?
>>
>> JD

>
>
>Don't know. I don't play mp3s....

How about .flac's ?

JD

04-29-2008

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:22:29 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"
<zachd@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

>
>Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due
>to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen.

I've tried three different sound cards. Two are integrated and one was
a standalone card. Specifically :

ADI AD1988 integrated in my Asus M2N-E motherboard
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio card
Realtek ALC888 integrated in a Gigabyte GA-MA770-S3 motheboard

I have tried both the 32bit and 64 bit versions of Vista and in all
cases the processor usage averaged 50% during audio playback. I also
tried using Foobar 2000 and WinAmp. Same results. Obviouslyly this is
completely unworkable as I need my system to be able to do something
other than play music.

JD

04-29-2008

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:54:49 -0500, John <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

>On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:22:29 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]"
><zachd@xxxxxx> wrote:
>

Quote:

>>
>>Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due
>>to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen.

>
>I've tried three different sound cards. Two are integrated and one was
>a standalone card. Specifically :
>
>ADI AD1988 integrated in my Asus M2N-E motherboard
>Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio card
>Realtek ALC888 integrated in a Gigabyte GA-MA770-S3 motheboard
>
>I have tried both the 32bit and 64 bit versions of Vista and in all
>cases the processor usage averaged 50% during audio playback. I also
>tried using Foobar 2000 and WinAmp. Same results. Obviouslyly this is
>completely unworkable as I need my system to be able to do something
>other than play music.

Note that there are no enhancements on by defaukt and I tested each
version immediately after I installed the OS as I had previously
observed this problem and it's imperative to resolve before I'll even
consider using Vista on my workstation.

JD

04-29-2008

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:10:13 +0100, "Gordon"
<gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote:

Quote:

>> How about .flac's ?

>
>What's a .flac?

Free Lossless Audio Codec

So what audio format do you use ? .wav ?

JD

04-28-2008	#1 (permalink)
zachd [MSFT] n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? I don't speak for Microsoft and would never want to. I've been viruently anti-Microsoft and so can understand and respect the extremes of feeling, but have no interest in anything beyond technical matters. As such: Hey, you didn't mention what specific problems you're running into. What are those? If you're asking generally "Why can't Microsoft predict each and every conflict and solve this in advance?" - that's a fascinating challenge. That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help minimize conflicts. Service packs and QFEs are a chance to address issues that people didn't run into previous to release. I'll give a case in point, a fix I worked on - some digital camera makers use a strange AVI writer that uses a strange data format. These aren't common and thus this wasn't generally noticed in the beta. But it was noticed post-Vista RTM (Vista RTM actually enforced data types, which broke their ... interesting writer) and I worked with the right people to get that addressed in SP1. So: if you're running into some problem, it's most likely that you have some interesting and unknown issue, the specifics of which would be critical to getting that problem resolved moving forward. Cheers, -Zach -- Speaking for myself only. See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info. This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. -- "Joe" <Joe@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:4CC8BA3C-3A8D-41FD-8656-54C61FBAD6E2@xxxxxx Quote: > Could someone please tell me why Microsoft would release a product knowing > that there are unresolved issues with the product? What is the point of > doing > Beta testing if you are not going to find all the bugs, fix them and then > release the product? I'm not trying to be flippant(sp?) here. This is a > serious question. With all the money, man/woman power and brain power > available to Microsoft for R&D, why is it so hard to put out a product > that > works from the word go? I don't want to become Microsoft certified in > order > to keep my computer running. I shouldn't have to fool with my computers > registry so that I can install an update to fix a problem that they knew > about before they sold it to me. Come on Bill. I thought the whole purpose > of > technology advancing was to make our life easier. I want to insert disk > and > push play. I'm not talking about dumbing things down. I'm talking about > Microsoft developing their products, making sure they work and then > selling > them to us. Interesting concept, huh? Would you care to Beta test that?
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#2 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]" <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: > that's a fascinating challenge. >That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help >minimize conflicts. This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African savannah. JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#3 (permalink)
Not Me n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? "John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:7t8d14t742icfuksstofko1j2aao9obhn7@xxxxxx Quote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]" > <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote: > Quote: >> that's a fascinating challenge. >>That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help >>minimize conflicts. > > This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers > of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more > bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African > savannah. > > JD So they did a major upgrade already? LOL
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#4 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon" <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: Quote: >> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers >> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more >> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African >> savannah. > >No bugs here matey...... So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat when playing back an MP3 ? JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#5 (permalink)
zachd [MSFT] n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? What specific bugs/issues are you referring to? Phantom issues aren't actually bugs. =) Hoarding information about rumored issues unfortunately makes it challenging to ensure that these strange issues can be addressed if needed in the future. But then again, maybe that's just me. I like fixing stuff and making things better. =) -- Speaking for myself only. See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info. This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. -- "John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:7t8d14t742icfuksstofko1j2aao9obhn7@xxxxxx Quote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:19:25 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]" > <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote: > Quote: >> that's a fascinating challenge. >>That's why there's extensive internal and external beta testing to help >>minimize conflicts. > > This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers > of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more > bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African > savannah. > > JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#6 (permalink)
zachd [MSFT] n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen. -- Speaking for myself only. See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info. This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights. -- "John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:11pd14hju1d8an4gtvsl2lsvch7l04l893@xxxxxx Quote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon" > <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote: > Quote: Quote: >>> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers >>> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more >>> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African >>> savannah. >> >>No bugs here matey...... > > So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat > when playing back an MP3 ? > > JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#7 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:11:38 +0100, "Gordon" <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: >"John" <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote in message >news:11pd14hju1d8an4gtvsl2lsvch7l04l893@xxxxxx Quote: >> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:32:12 +0100, "Gordon" >> <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote: >> Quote: >>>> This is what really annoys me with Vista. They (MS) had huge numbers >>>> of beta testers for a very long period of time. And yet we have more >>>> bugs than a pile of Zebra droppings on an warm morning in an African >>>> savannah. >>> >>>No bugs here matey...... >> >> So what kind of sound card are you using and how much CPU does it eat >> when playing back an MP3 ? >> >> JD > > >Don't know. I don't play mp3s.... How about .flac's ? JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#8 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:22:29 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]" <zachd@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: > >Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due >to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen. I've tried three different sound cards. Two are integrated and one was a standalone card. Specifically : ADI AD1988 integrated in my Asus M2N-E motherboard Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio card Realtek ALC888 integrated in a Gigabyte GA-MA770-S3 motheboard I have tried both the 32bit and 64 bit versions of Vista and in all cases the processor usage averaged 50% during audio playback. I also tried using Foobar 2000 and WinAmp. Same results. Obviouslyly this is completely unworkable as I need my system to be able to do something other than play music. JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#9 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:54:49 -0500, John <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: >On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 02:22:29 -0700, "zachd [MSFT]" ><zachd@xxxxxx> wrote: > Quote: >> >>Which sound card do you have? Most sound card related issues seem to be due >>to very bad Enhancements. If you turn those off, miracles can happen. > >I've tried three different sound cards. Two are integrated and one was >a standalone card. Specifically : > >ADI AD1988 integrated in my Asus M2N-E motherboard >Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio card >Realtek ALC888 integrated in a Gigabyte GA-MA770-S3 motheboard > >I have tried both the 32bit and 64 bit versions of Vista and in all >cases the processor usage averaged 50% during audio playback. I also >tried using Foobar 2000 and WinAmp. Same results. Obviouslyly this is >completely unworkable as I need my system to be able to do something >other than play music. Note that there are no enhancements on by defaukt and I tested each version immediately after I installed the OS as I had previously observed this problem and it's imperative to resolve before I'll even consider using Vista on my workstation. JD
My System Specs

04-29-2008	#10 (permalink)
John n/a posts	Re: Why all the headache? On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:10:13 +0100, "Gordon" <gbplinux@xxxxxx> wrote: Quote: Quote: >> How about .flac's ? > >What's a .flac? Free Lossless Audio Codec So what audio format do you use ? .wav ? JD
My System Specs

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