Vista - Microsoft's Motivation Behind WPA/WGA/SPP

Gene Fitz wrote:
> I agree Kerry,
>
> You can please some of the people all the time, all of the people some of
> the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.
>
> Again, I stand by my original word that Microsoft, in protecting it's own
> interest again'ts piracy, will binefit the end users.
>
> Look, no matter what you think about Microsoft's past "blind eye" to piracy,
> the world is different. Thanks to broadband, piracy has become a crime that
> is largely out of control. Sure, in the dial up days, you could download a
> copy of windows, but even win 95 was over 400Mb, and it would take days. It
> wasn't a worry, because there were too few people with fast enough
> connections to handle a full OS download. Now, well, lets just say, I
> downloaded Vista in less than an hour.
>
> Microsoft sees the problems facing them, and they are trying to meet it.
> Especially with Vista. XP came at a time when broadband was still new. The
> protection features, for Microsoft weren't even a thought. I mean, hell, who
> would have thought that broadband (Cable and DSL) would have become so
> popular, moreover, who would have thought that it would become so cheap.
>
> As much as I know many people think of Microsoft as "The evil empire," I
> believe they have the right, as a company to protect their income. And note,
> all the people bitching about this, are using Microsoft products, and if you
> aren't, if you are just a troll, you really need to get a life.
>
> I like Kerry, like windows. I like Vista more than any other version I have
> used. I haven't experienced most of the problems others claim, which makes me
> believe that it isn't the OS that's the problem. I am not a program writer, I
> am not a software developer, but I understand that they are both hard jobs.
> It takes time, and a lot of money to develop a program, especially an OS that
> is functional and friendly. I think it is only fair that the people who use
> it, actually pay for it.
>
> Now, as far as the price, well, it will be lightly more expensive. Windows
> home premium, which will most likely be the common software load for most
> computer, is said to cost about $240. That is only $55 up from the Amazon.com
> price for XP Home full version with SP2. Business will be around $299, which
> is only about $30 higher than the full version of XP Pro with SP2 that Amazon
> has for $269.
>
> I am talking retail, not OEM here.
>
> And for those people who just HAVE to have Ultimate, well, you are going to
> have to shell out the cash for it. Sorry about that, but that is the way it
> goes. You want the best, you got to pay for it.
>
> Will there be lines at best buy on the release date? If so, very short ones.
> I suspect more people will be buying new computers pre-loaded with Vista Home
> Premium, than buying retail copies. I will be buying a retail copy, because
> my system is all ready for it.
>
> As far as the restrictions on upgrades, well, I have made my statement on
> the best upgrade ideas. Do it before you buy and load, so you can make the
> newer updates in a couple years, and not have to fiddle with it.
>
> Love it or hate it, complain all you want, but this train's a comin. All
> Aboard, or get off the tracks, because you can't stop it.
>
> Just a thought
>
>
>
>
> "Kerry Brown" wrote:
>
>> Will wrote:
>>> I earn plenty of money however I prefer to keep my money in my pocket
>>> and not hand it over to MSFT
>>>
>> This is the solution to the whole problem of WGA, WPA, WGAN, etc. Vote with
>> your wallet. If enough people do then Microsoft will change their policies.
>> That's the way our "capitalist" economy works. I agree with Rick Rogers that
>> I don't think enough people will switch to an alternative OS that it will
>> make a difference but voting with your wallet is your only real chance of
>> changing things. If nothing else if all the geeks moved to Linux, Microsoft
>> and other companies that base their profits on Windows would have to fix
>> their support systems as all the free support would be using a different OS
>> and unlikely to help their friends and neighbours:-)
>>
>> Personally I like Windows and I really like Vista. I also like Linux. I will
>> not be switching to Linux and I am willing to put up with WGA, WPA for two
>> reasons. One - I am more productive with Windows than Linux. I make my
>> living with computers and so far I can make more money using Windows. I
>> guess that's greed. Two - I have had software that I have developed ripped
>> off and it hurts on a personal as well as financial level. Years ago I was
>> against any form of copy protection. After having a program I developed
>> ripped off by a larger developer who basically told me they'd be happy to
>> see me in court as they could afford better lawyers I started using copy
>> protection, code obfuscation, and any available means I could find to
>> protect my programs. Piracy is theft and hurts the victim in ways other than
>> just financially. Just because Microsoft is very large doesn't mean they
>> don't feel the same emotions at the top levels. And yes I am aware that many
>> people feel that Microsoft is guilty of doing the same thing as the larger
>> developer did to me.
>>
>> --
>> Kerry
>> MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User
>> http://www.vistahelp.ca
>>
>>
>>
Well,
I agree with the article;
There's no reasonable explanation for SPP, and; if the Office 2007
servers are any indication; functionally it's a flawed system-too. Can
MSFT GUARANTEE 100% uninterrupted service? Well?
If not; here come the lawsuits;from "reduced functionality".
Legit customers "inconvenienced"?? WTF- What part of-"shutting down
functionality" is an inconvenience?
LOL
Seriously, let's forget the SPP piracy stuff for a moment; from a
technical standpoint; this is headed for trouble.

Jeff

Gene Fitz wrote:
> I agree Kerry,
>
> You can please some of the people all the time, all of the people some of
> the time, but you can't please all the people all the time.

MS has fooled you all of the time.

> Again, I stand by my original word that Microsoft, in protecting it's own
> interest again'ts piracy, will binefit the end users.

Really? How so? It obviously hasn't motivated MS to offer family packs
or lower the price.

>
> Look, no matter what you think about Microsoft's past "blind eye" to piracy,
> the world is different. Thanks to broadband, piracy has become a crime that
> is largely out of control. Sure, in the dial up days, you could download a
> copy of windows, but even win 95 was over 400Mb, and it would take days. It
> wasn't a worry, because there were too few people with fast enough
> connections to handle a full OS download. Now, well, lets just say, I
> downloaded Vista in less than an hour.

95, 98SE, Me, Office 97/2K, W2K, PhotoShop, etc. were pirated by burning
CDs. Bandwidth was not relevant. Music has been copied since
reel-to-reel tapes were available long before computers came on the
scene, much less any kind of bandwidth.

When VHS came out, Hollywood screamed. When cassette tapes came out, the
music industry screamed. Nonetheless, all of them are still in business
and making obscene profits, as is Microsoft. Your defending them only
means you've been brainwashed to believe the lies.

Alias

> When VHS came out, Hollywood screamed. When cassette tapes came out, the
> music industry screamed. Nonetheless, all of them are still in business
> and making obscene profits, as is Microsoft. Your defending them only
> means you've been brainwashed to believe the lies.
>
> Alias




Why don't you turn your considerable efforts to rail about "big oil" on an
appropriate newsgroup or chat room?

You surely (Shirley) must drive a car!

--

Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

Richard Urban wrote:
>> When VHS came out, Hollywood screamed. When cassette tapes came out, the
>> music industry screamed. Nonetheless, all of them are still in business
>> and making obscene profits, as is Microsoft. Your defending them only
>> means you've been brainwashed to believe the lies.
>>
>> Alias
>
>
>
>
> Why don't you turn your considerable efforts to rail about "big oil" on an
> appropriate newsgroup or chat room?
>
> You surely (Shirley) must drive a car!
>

No, I don't own or drive a car. If you don't like my posts, feel free to
kill file me or use self control and don't read them.

Alias

"Alias~-" <notever@aolhell.net> wrote in message
news:%23N0PLV4%23GHA.1196@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Richard Urban wrote:
>>> When VHS came out, Hollywood screamed. When cassette tapes came out, the
>>> music industry screamed. Nonetheless, all of them are still in business
>>> and making obscene profits, as is Microsoft. Your defending them only
>>> means you've been brainwashed to believe the lies.
>>>
>>> Alias
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why don't you turn your considerable efforts to rail about "big oil" on
>> an
>> appropriate newsgroup or chat room?
>>
>> You surely (Shirley) must drive a car!
>>
>
> No, I don't own or drive a car. If you don't like my posts, feel free to
> kill file me or use self control and don't read them.
>
> Alias



Why don't you turn your considerable efforts to rail about "big oil" on an
appropriate newsgroup or chat room?

You surely (Shirley) must drive a car!

--

Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

Alias~- wrote:
> http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/6713/983/
>
> Good article and so true.
>
> Alias

This article reflects my thinking exactly. I like MS's products and
don't mind paying for them but their anti-piracy and EULA policies are
driving me toward the competition. Yesterday I removed XP and Vista
from my main PC and installed Linux (Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise
Desktop). Before doing so, I also wrote to Microsoft to advise them
what their policies were driving at least this customer to do. The fact
that this article appeared the very next day tells me that I am not alone.

While I was at home within Windows\Office for years I am prepared to
take the time and effort to learn Linux\Open Office and move in that
direction. To be totally honest, with this version of Linux I am
feeling comfortable and productive already.

Should Mircosoft wake-up and change directions quickly I am likely to
return to the Windows camp but if they stay the present course I am
unlikely to return. Every MS product I have been running is a legit
legal copy. I do not condone piracy in any way. I may be just one
small customer but one that has been paying MS approximately $700 per
year which they will no longer see. In addition, I hold shares in
Microsoft and those will be put on the market next week.

I do not hate MS or their products, I do hate their piracy and EULA
policies.

We oppose SPP because MSFT can't make it correctly and they don't care.
That's why many of us are going to force them to stop it as they have been
forced to do many other things--using the federal courts.

Quick Message Rick: Much of the opposition to SPP has ***nothing*** to do
with support of piracy--it has to do with the significant percent of failure
of WGA that I have linked on this group. MSFT cannot hire developers who
can make accurate piracy ID code. They never will be able to. It is for
this reason they are going to be ordered in U.S. courts to stop the practice
of SPP, or enter into settlements after another expensive fiasco for their
stockholders brought to them by their friendly litigation team headed by
Brad Smith and Nancy Anderson, who have the same impact on the MSFT treasury
as Count Dracula on his best Halloween night.

No Mr. Rogers. "On ocassion" is not what statistically is happening with
WGA or will happen with SPP. A substantial percentage of the time is not
"on occassion" and I don't know where you got that nebulous phrase to apply
to this situation. I strongly recommend your reading the many links from Ed
Bott that I have posted on this group several times. I know you know who he
is, and I bet you own some of his books. I bet you buy his Windows Vista
Inside Out book that has already sold nearly a million copies from MSFT
Press.

You're making a huge mistake using such a broad brush to paint and
stereotype those of us who oppose WGA and SPP because it's as erratic and
ineffective as security at your airport. It's why security at the airport
is terrible when you wait in line right now. Every study done deploying
undercover agents to test every airport in the country shows them porous
with incompetent security--not the competence level an MVP strives for.
Much of what causes your line to take a long time is pandering to
superficial perceptions, not contributing to meaningful security.
Apparently you have bought into them hook, line, and "nutcase" sinker.

Fake IDs Fooling Feds
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/media/sto...at.arizona.edu

Right now, there are web sites set up by computer science grad students
that show how fake boarding passes and tickets can be made quickly, and this
huge vulnerability hasn't been challenged by any of Chertoff's ineffective
and incompetent bureaucracy or Fran Townsend at the West Wing and her
incompetent and totally ineffective bureaucracy who made fools of themselves
last week broadcasting warnings of NFL stadiums being all bombed at the same
time when the gamers were at different times and listed LOL an NFL stadium
that happens not to exist on the planet--a fake one. They're the Katrina
Kids--they killed people there and they'll continue to kill people with
their incompetence.

The safety belt is a lousy analogy. Safety belts save lives by the
thousands. There have also been safety belt blunt trauma injuries that are
significant but they are a very small fraction less than .001% in the trauma
literature. You live in a country that is also willing to accept 1000
deaths a year because they aren't lowering the front end of gas guzzling
terrorist funding large trucks that put the US at a disadvantage right now
as to national defense because the front end won't be legislatively lowered
until 2010. Meanwhile, Coingress has cheerfully accepted the 1000 deaths a
year caused by the high front ends in collisons with Non-SUVs which were
emphasized in testimony reported studies in hearings repeatedly. Welcome to
"born and died" in the USA--a line Springsteen left out.

Fortunately in Nine days, a lot of Republicans are going to be fired on a
Tuesday by 10PM. House control and subpoena power and oversight will be in
the hands of the Democrats. The Senate has an excellent chance of going
that way with many of the do nothing incompetents trailing this morning from
15-20%.

The Hill forecasts 20-35 Republican seats lost in the House and a huge
stampede of Independents towards the Democrats in the ABC news poll
announced this morning.

Since you're into MSFT Syncophancy, did you support their former lobbyist @
$27,000 per month until Ballmer fired him the day it hit the Seattle papers
and national media Ralph Reed? Ralph Reed was instrumental in helping
protect the Mariana Islands slavery and prostitution factory for young
imported Asisan girls; Reed was insturmental in the bribery scandle now
under investigation with a prison bus continually loading up for transport
from the West Wing to prison several times a year. The biggest load of
passengers will Board in 2007-2008. They won't be using Windows Vista for a
long long time or touching a PC or a Mac. No Ipods or Zunes for them
either.

Yeehaw as indifferent illiterate America sleeps:=--the activities of MSFT's
$27,000 lobbyist or Nancy Anderson and Brad Smith's attempts to protect SPP.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...+Jack+Abramoff

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ariana+Islands

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ed&btnG=Search

2) Most MVPs Rick, are concerned with whether software works. I haven't
seen any MVP sites yet that want to endorse turning Windows Vista, Longhorn
Server, and Office 2007 into "reduced functionality mode" when it targets
legitimate copies of Windows.

I'm going to state this clearly and simply for you. Many of us opposed to
SPP, myself included have never used P2P or a Torrent to get MSFT software,
one mp3, or one movie or anything else free in our lifetimes although we
follow the technology closely. Torrents are now being started to deliver
legitimately purchased software efficiently and I doubt that has escaped
you. Many of us who oppose WGA and SPP and are ready to support efforts in
court to stop it, are big fans of MSFT. Some of us have been responsible
for pushing specific changes in Vista that are already in Escrow and some
that should be. They are changes like getting the Print teams to default a
port that will make thousands of peoples' XP print drivers work, protecting
system restore points, and a gamut of others that will make Mr. Rogers'
Vista run better.

We also communicate constructively to people in a position to make a clear
workable EULA, to protect MSFT software from piracy without having an
erratic SPP that kills legitimate machines.

Don't stereotype us as

Documentation of MSFT Runing a Significant not Occassional Number of Systems
with WGA/SPP

MSFT sued over WGA
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Spyware/?p=839

Additionally the Vista EULA abuses the user.

October 19, 2006
"Forbidding Vistas: Windows licensing disserves the user "
http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archiv..._the_user.html

by Wendy Selzer, EFF Staff Attorney

http://www.eff.org/

As Ed Bott and others have demonstrated MSFT reckless deployed WGA, forcing
it onto machines, which was erratic the same way,although it can be removed
surgicially .

Ed Bott is doing a stellar job of tracking this, analyzing, and critiquing
this and Ed Bott co-authors one of the most complete and authoritative
Windows references for every operating system including the one that has
pre-sold nearly a million copies, "Windows Vista Inside Out" by Microsoft
Press
http://www.microsoft.com/MSPress/books/9361.asp

Ed Bott's Bookstore
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?page_id=993

Ed Bott's Three Blogs

Ed Bott's Microsoft Report
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/

Ed Bott's Windows Expertise/Tips, tricks, news, and advice about Windows and
Office
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/

Ed Bott's Media Central
http://www.edbott.com/mediacenter/index.php

Ed Bott's Columns on MSFT's Site
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...erts/bott.mspx

The author of one of the major books on Windows OS's and numerous
articles for MSFT over the year Ed Bott has taken MSFT to task for their
sloppy work with WGA repeatedly in the last few months and the same sloppy
work with SPP and MSFT has had totally ignorant spokes persons speak to
different questioners that are quoted on Ed's two blogs currently with the
most inane and no knowledgable defenses of WGA which does not work correctly
and SPP which will not work correctly immaginable. They are making a fool
of themselves with the implemenation of WGA and SPP and they are going to
learn to back off when it hits them in the area they worship--their money.

I want people to note this conversation because it speaks volumes about
MSFT's inane contracted support and MSFT's oversight of it and MSFT's
attitude as to how little it means when they represent themselves to their
customers--this is a conversation that Ed Bott had with "MSFT PSS" probably
Convergys of Ohio contracting:

From Ed Bott at http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84

"I called Microsoft support to see if there is a hidden option to say, "yep,
I've got updates turned to manual: it's okay." The rep said, "No and why
wouldn't you want to get the latest updates to Windows."

I responded with the issues relating to WGA. He spent some time telling me
that WGA was a good thing, etc. I reiterated that I have accepted all the
updates except WGA and just want to review the updates before they're
installed on my machine.

He told me that "in the fall, having the latest WGA will become mandatory
and if its not installed, Windows will give a 30 day warning and when the 30
days is up and WGA isn't installed, Windows will stop working, so you might
as well install WGA now." [emphasis added]

I'm wondering if Microsoft has the right to disable Windows functionality or
the OS as a whole (tantamount to revoking my legitimate Windows license) if
I do not install every piece of software that they send it updates.

That can't be true, can it? I'm always suspicious of any report that comes
from a front-line tech support drone, so I sent a note to Microsoft asking
for an official confirmation or, better yet, a denial. Instead, I got this
terse response from a Microsoft spokesperson:

As we have mentioned previously, as the WGA Notifications program expands
in the future, customers may be required to participate. [emphasis added]
Microsoft is gathering feedback in select markets to learn how it can best
meet its customers' needs and will keep customers informed of any changes to
the program.

That's it. That's the entire response.

Uh-oh. Currently, Windows users have the ability to opt out of the Windows
Genuine Advantage program and still get security patches and other Critical
Updates delivered via Windows Update. The only thing you give up is the
ability to download optional updates. Hackers have been working overtime to
find ways to disable WGA notification. If WGA becomes mandatory, would it
mean that Microsoft could prevent Windows from working if it determines -
possibly erroneously - that your copy isn't "genuine"? That's a chilling
possibility, and Microsoft refuses an easy opportunity to deny that that
option is in its plans.

Over at Ed Bott's Windows Expertise, I've been soliciting feedback from
Windows users who've been burned by WGA. So far, I've received 20 comments.

Here's a sampling:

a.. I have an XP Media center with a promise RAID 0 4-disc array. When I
installed the WPA it broke the drivers for the array by causing failed
delayed writes (half of the array just "disapears".) If I do a system
restore to before the installation of the WPA everything goes back to
working just fine.
b.. [S]ince installing WPA : I've had blue screens and a total inability
to boot. I had to run the XP repair function to get the computer to boot. I
had a damaged boot sector on the hard drive. I am running two drives on a
RAID 1 config.
c.. I purchased a SEALED OEM copy of XP Professional. WGA said the license
key was already used. I called MS and they said I should uninstall and buy
another copy. I told them I wasn't made of money and hung-up.
d.. Microsoft rejected the product key that came with the ThinkPad I'm
using. I had to call in and they gave me another code to enter which
supposedly worked but now I get the blue screen of death about every other
time I reboot. I've also lost all internet connectivity.
e.. I sent my Compaq Presario notebook for service repair, and it fails
the WGA check. I have a legal version of windows xp professional on it. But
I have no way to correct this problem.
What's most disturbing about this whole saga is Microsoft's complete lack of
transparency on the issue. And before the ABM crowd jumps in with
predictable "What did you expect?" comments, let me argue that Microsoft
actually has a fairly good track record on transparency issues in recent
years. Windows Product Activation is very well documented, and when a
similar uproar occurred in 2001, it was squelched quickly by some fairly
prominent postings from high-level executives who provided details without a
lot of spin. Likewise, the Microsoft Security Response Center has done an
exceptional job at providing quick responses to security issues. (Just ask
Adam Shostack.)

Currently, no one at Microsoft is blogging about this fiasco. No executive
has been quoted on the record about it. There are very few technical details
available, and those that have been published are being tumbled through the
spin machine and spit out as press releases.

If Microsoft really does plan to turn WGA into a kill switch in September,
be prepared for an enormous backlash."

From Ed Bott on October 5, 2006:

UAC Good; SPP Not So Good
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/

"SPP, on the other hand, is the successor to Windows Genuine Advantage. Both
initiatives have in common a reliance on Orwellian language that appears to
be in the customer's benefit but is actually a horrible inconvenience and
potentially a nightmare. Despite Microsoft's attempts to spin the new
program, there's no advantage for the Windows customer, and the only thing
being protected is Microsoft's revenue stream."

Microsoft Issues Warning to VLK Customers Over WGA Fail
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=35401

Guess there will be a WGA "Kill Switch After All"
Published October 4, 2006 by Ed Bott
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=1495

Is Microsoft about to release a Windows "kill switch"?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84

Search on WGA
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/

October 4, 2006 For Vista, WGA gets Tougher
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=148

Ed Bott Blog Readers Burned by WGA
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=1370#comments

WGA is a Mess
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=1476

Microsoft Kill Switch in Windows Vista and threat to disable Windows (the
so-called Microsoft Software Protection Platform)
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=84

Microsoft's Software Protection Platform: Protecting Software and Customers
from Counterfeiters
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/f...rotection.mspx

Microsoft's Software Protection Platform: Protecting Software and Customers
from Counterfeiters
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/f...rotection.mspx

White Paper: Software Protection Platform: Innovations for Windows Vista
and Windows Server "Longhorn" Oct. 2006 (.doc file, 2.7 MB)
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/f...rotection.mspx

Microsoft Issues Warning to VLK Customers Over WGA Fail
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=35401

Phil Liu of Microsoft has reported problems with the Windows Genuine
Advantage authentication method for Volume License Key (VLK) customers and a
temporary work-around.

"Just a heads up on an issue related to (Volume) VLK validation. On Monday
and Tuesday of this week (Oct 2-3), some VLK customers may have experienced
problems with WGA validation. If a Windows XP system with a VLK recently
began failing validation or reporting as non-genuine, then they may
experiencing this problem. The problem was the result of an issue on the
Microsoft server side, and we are still investigating the cause. We regret
any inconvenience this may have caused you, and I am personally working to
get the information you need to resolve this issue.

We do have steps available that affected customers can take to correct the
problem, and we'll continue to work on solutions and post them on this
forum."

Customers who are affected can:
1.. Delete the data.dat file from Cocuments and SettingsAll
UsersApplication DataWindows Genuine Advantagedata (The drive letter will
depend on where the OS was installed)
2.. Revisit http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/dow.../validate.aspx to
confirm that the machine is now genuine.
3.. Run wgatray.exe /b from the command line to ensure that the latest
validation is updated for WGA Notifications. This command may not be present
on the user's machine and should not be considered an error if it is not.
Please ensure that this is run as an Administrator. A reboot may be required
to remove all non-genuine notifications."

CH



"Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:eCVG530%23GHA.1220@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> So their motivation is to make the illegitimate users go legit? What a
> surprise.
>
> Yes, the honest user will be inconvenienced on occasion by the new
> security implementation. Just like I have to wait in line at the airport
> to get through security, or wait at the police checkpoint to see if I'm
> wearing my safety belt and have my vehicle inspected, or tolerate the fact
> that I am being filmed as I shop at Wally World.
>
> "Microsoft trusted its users to do the right thing and generally they did"
>
> This was before the notion of "get it for free on the internet" existed.
> The theives then were far and few between, now many have the attitude of
> not paying unless you get caught.
>
> "There is a restriction on how many times users can transfer the boxed
> copy of Windows they purchase to a new machine."
>
> While we don't know for sure that this will be the case, I do agree this
> will be a bad move. However, this is a private company that has the right
> to restrict how their software is used. If the imposed limitation is a bad
> one, which I believe it to be, it will make itself evident in a small
> backlash from the technical community. I say "small" because the truth is
> that the majority get their copy of Windows with the system and never do
> major hardware upgrades. The power user that builds their own machine is
> still a very tiny minority.
>
> "There will be no long queues of users outside computer stores lining up
> to buy a boxed copy of Vista Home Basic to load on their underpowered XP
> computers"
>
> Start me up! Remember Win95 - those days, the days when only geeks had
> computers, are gone. Computers are in the realm of the great unwashed, the
> technically inefficient. This is why the transfer limitation will probably
> not have any major affect in sales, as to most it simply won't matter.
>
> "The strategy is a risky one. Like pirate CDs and DVDs, the vast majority
> of pirate Windows copies proliferate in second and third world markets.
> The reason is that many users in those markets find Windows prohibitively
> expensive. Can Microsoft force a significant proportion of them to go
> legitimate? Perhaps, or perhaps it will simply drive them into the
> welcoming arms of the Linux world."
>
> Risky? No, more like calculated risk, and probably a safe one based on the
> points I've already given. It's not the geek's world anymore. Is it too
> expensive in the tirdl world market? Hell, it's too expensive in the first
> world market, but it still sells. Linux, as far as it has come along, is
> still the realm of the geek. Linux could actually benefit from a marketing
> campaign, but that will never happen as there is no profit motive in doing
> so.
>
> --
> Best of Luck,
>
> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>
> "Alias~-" <notever@aolhell.net> wrote in message
> news:uYjzRN0%23GHA.3860@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/6713/983/
>>
>> Good article and so true.
>>
>> Alias
>

John--

Many who oppose SPP are not supporters of piracy.
Many who oppose SPP are not supporters of piracy.

Please write that on the blackboard a few hundred times so that you
understand that any of you who stereotype that as the norm.

Stay tuned and watch. A lot of us who are **not MSFT haters and are instead
MSFT enthusiasts who help regularly on their newsgroups because their tech
support is eggregiously horrendus by phone subenterprise, have made a
compelling argument to them that if they continue the EULA as it seems to
have been written at first, and continue SPP we will rewrite both documents
for them using the federal courts to do so.

The world is not black and white, and opposition to WGA/SPP and a EULA that
hoses nuclear families is not monolithically and homogeneously composed of
"MSFT haters", people who don't understand capitalism that has been
distorted in the US into outsourcing and war on the middle class by an
adminstration that caters to the very small percentage of the very wealthy.

Piracy and stealing are not okay, yet the vast majority of judges' children
and university students in the US which may be your country do it
promiscuously on the web. I'd be willing to bet it's a vibrant activity in
whatever country is your country. It's tracked by Champaign a group that
had its start at the University of Illinois. Currently approximately 30,000
individuals have been subpoenaed into the 93 federal district courts in the
US, and ordered by a judge to reimburse the RIAA $3500 for their
pirated/stolen music downloads. In one case, in Kentucky, a deaf man was
hauled into court only to discover his daughter had done thousands of stolen
downloads from P2P and forced to pay the fine.

These theifs are the students positioned to be the leaders so called of
tomorrow. Additionally a significant percent of students in every
university in the US is now buying poorly written papers for use in their
class rooms and being efficiently identified by increasingly sophisticated
software and the students have had the chutzpuh to protest the practice of
monitoring them because it is lol intrusive.

If you read many of these papers, one would have to be brain dead to believe
they would pass and couldn't be picked off quickly, they are so poorly
written, out of context, full of patchwork non-sequitors and paragraphs that
are off topic.

Welcome to America the "Rick Rodgers" unwashed. LOL

When the AOC (Administrative Office of US Courts) monitored judge's and
judges' chambers computers' key strokes in the US briefly) with the 9th
Circuit actually turning off every computer in every court in the states
that comprise it in protest, stats showed a 6% downloaded piracy rate. The
showdown ended with judges calling for an investigation and federal
indictment and ouster of the man responsible for initiating the monitoring
and a vote to abolish it in annual the Judicial Conference.

CH


"John Barnes" <jbarnes@email.net> wrote in message
news:O$vYty1%23GHA.1784@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> Good answers, but why butt your head against a brick wall. Microsoft
> haters will always ignore/hate licenses, think profit is greed and piracy
> (stealing) is okay.
>

I could only wish that 99% of the people in your country the US, my country
too were more educated but even the ones who have been to colleges, grad
schools, professional schools, law schools, med schools are vastly stupid,
lazy and uneducated when it comes to the way their government is conducting
itself in the global arena, economically and foreign policy wise and they
have a dead wood Congress that is apathetically practicing no oversight or
practicing over site via focus group and finger out of the butt and into the
wind and back into the butt.

MSFT the company whose feet you worship has such contempt for the people you
deem the "unwashed" (ever seen many of the dumb questions on the TBT
groups--lol talk about uneducated and unwashed that would include a high
percentage of those 28000 people some of whom do well to find the start
button or their bellybutton and can't distinguish between them from what I
read) has straddled and watered you and the great unwashed by providing
outsourced Indian minimum waged butts in seats who can't speak passable
intelligible English and in scores of easily repaired scenarios will tell
people to wipe the box and reload.

MSFT itself has a number of unwashed engineers who don't understand Driver
Verifier configuration well enough to prevent a significant number of blue
screen no boots by disabling deadlock detection and the inspection but not
the functionality of their antivirus program's software drivers with the
insipid and horribly written error messages that this is "due to a faulty
kernel stack driver" when a driverquery at the command prompt will reveal an
average of 225-300 kernel stack drivers on an XP Pro or Vista Ultimate box.

No MSKB has addressed this adequately yet in XP or Vista.

CH


"Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:%23z2CJh1%23GHA.4388@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> "Alias~-" <notever@aolhell.net> wrote in message
> news:%23E7VHJ1%23GHA.1224@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Rick Rogers wrote:
>>> So their motivation is to make the illegitimate users go legit? What a
>>> surprise.
>>
>> No, their motivation is greed. In an attempt to satisfy this greed, they
>> rolled out WPA/WGA, etc.
>
> This is capitalism, companies are driven by greed and profit motive. If
> they flounder and fail to produce profits and pay dividends, shareholders
> will move their investments elsewhere and the company will go under. The
> motive behind these changes is to make it more difficult for the pirates
> and discourage illegal distribution, and that also makes for more
> inconveniences for the legitimate user.
>
>>> Yes, the honest user will be inconvenienced on occasion by the new
>>> security implementation. Just like I have to wait in line at the airport
>>> to get through security, or wait at the police checkpoint to see if I'm
>>> wearing my safety belt and have my vehicle inspected, or tolerate the
>>> fact that I am being filmed as I shop at Wally World.
>>
>> You didn't buy the airport, police check point or Wally World and there's
>> no way you could steal them so your analogy is seriously flawed.
>
> It's my plane ticket, my car, and my items in the shopping cart. The point
> was that we all have to deal with some security measures that previously
> did not exist in all walks of life.
>
>>> "Microsoft trusted its users to do the right thing and generally they
>>> did"
>>>
>>> This was before the notion of "get it for free on the internet" existed.
>>> The theives then were far and few between, now many have the attitude of
>>> not paying unless you get caught.
>>
>> That's one theory. My theory is that MS allowed piracy before XP in order
>> to saturate and control the market. Now they're trying to cash in. They
>> lied and said that controlling piracy will lower prices. Vista is more
>> expensive than XP.
>
> Who knows, but watch out for the black helicopters, conspiracy is all
> around us. Average prices have risen over the past 6 years (since XP's
> release), and for high demand items prices will always be higher, that's
> basic economics.
>
>>> "There is a restriction on how many times users can transfer the boxed
>>> copy of Windows they purchase to a new machine."
>>>
>>> While we don't know for sure that this will be the case, I do agree this
>>> will be a bad move. However, this is a private company that has the
>>> right to restrict how their software is used. If the imposed limitation
>>> is a bad one, which I believe it to be, it will make itself evident in a
>>> small backlash from the technical community. I say "small" because the
>>> truth is that the majority get their copy of Windows with the system and
>>> never do major hardware upgrades. The power user that builds their own
>>> machine is still a very tiny minority.
>>
>> This minority may be a minority in your country but not here. Only idiots
>> don't buy white boxes in Spain but, then again, all the ISPs push Usenet
>> so I guess we have a more educated consumer here.
>
> You're thinking locally, and the issue is global. Possibly Spain has a
> more educated user, but the sad fact is that a majority of users worldwide
> are the great unwashed. I could only wish that the consumer was more
> educated.
>
>>> "There will be no long queues of users outside computer stores lining up
>>> to buy a boxed copy of Vista Home Basic to load on their underpowered XP
>>> computers"
>>>
>>> Start me up! Remember Win95 - those days, the days when only geeks had
>>> computers, are gone. Computers are in the realm of the great unwashed,
>>> the technically inefficient. This is why the transfer limitation will
>>> probably not have any major affect in sales, as to most it simply won't
>>> matter.
>>
>> Um, non geeks have been operating computers since the 60s.
>
> Using, yes. Building, no. Non-geeks never messed with installing an OS
> then, most don't now.
>
>>> "The strategy is a risky one. Like pirate CDs and DVDs, the vast
>>> majority of pirate Windows copies proliferate in second and third world
>>> markets. The reason is that many users in those markets find Windows
>>> prohibitively expensive. Can Microsoft force a significant proportion of
>>> them to go legitimate? Perhaps, or perhaps it will simply drive them
>>> into the welcoming arms of the Linux world."
>>>
>>> Risky? No, more like calculated risk, and probably a safe one based on
>>> the points I've already given. It's not the geek's world anymore. Is it
>>> too expensive in the tirdl world market?
>>
>> Yeah, when you make $200 a month, Windows is expensive.
>
> When you make $200 per month and are squandering your money on computers,
> you have your priorities in life all f*&^ed up.
>
>>> Hell, it's too expensive in the first world market, but it still sells.
>>
>> For now.
>
> I suspect it will continue to, and if it happens to slow (reduced demand),
> then prices will be reduced to increase sales. Such is a market driven
> economy.
>
>>> Linux, as far as it has come along, is still the realm of the geek.
>>> Linux could actually benefit from a marketing campaign, but that will
>>> never happen as there is no profit motive in doing so.
>>
>> Word of mouth is the best advertising and there are retail chains here in
>> Spain that will build you a box with Linux free if you buy the white box
>> from them.
>
> Sadly, that is not so. Word of mouth is probably the worst marketing
> technique there is.
>
>> Yes, you are right, MS' rip off scam will not be detected by Americans in
>> the USA but, then again, they voted for someone who thinks he speaks to
>> god for president.
>
> He was the lesser of two (we)evils. Like choosing between Packard Bell and
> Compaq and there are no alternatives. Niether is great, nor are they what
> you want out of a pc, but you've got to choose one.
>
>> Alias
>
> --
> Best of Luck,
>
> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>

A lot of us are turning our considerable efforts toward worthy causes. BTW
it's not just big oil, but your big Congress that is in the pocket of big
oil via K street.

The way the system works is hooker (Congress) receives money from John
(client oil company) and the service is sold by the pimp (K street and other
street in D.C.).

MSFT purchased one of those called Ralph Reed for $27000 per month and only
fired him the day it hit the media.

MSFT Fires Ralph Reed google hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...res+ralph+reed

1) Firing a lot of dead wood duplicitous disingenuous idiots in the US
House--current projection is that 20-35 will lose their jobs on Tuesday Nov.
7 to force a change in which party controls.

2) Firing a lot of dead wood disingenuous idiots in the US Senate to force a
change in which party controls.

3) Trying in a polite and civil way to pursuade MSFT at Redmond to correct
their mistakes in the EULA and with SPP or get them corrected for them via
the courts.

Accordingly to all news polls this morning there is a current stampede of
Independent voters towards Democratic candidates.

There will be a referendum on the fiasco in Iraq on November 7 which is
Operation Enduring Occupation that has started a Shiite Ascendancy toward
Fundamentalist Terrorism and Nuclear proliferation. If the US invades Iran
as many of us predict, Mr. Urban will immediately feel it economically at
his gas pump as will many Americans as they pull their huge gas hog SUVs up
to get their weekly hit of addicted fossil fuels.

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake"?--John Kerry

"Success in Iraq is possible and could be achieved on a realistic
imetable" --Zalmah Kalizad Ambassador to the US from Iraq

Iraq can be "in a very good place in 12 months" General Casey

"Even a child can see how much was wrong with this picture." Frank Rich New
York Times

As Frank Rich wrote in this mornings NY Times:

"As Richard Holbrooke, the broker of the Bosnia Peace Accords has observed,
the only real choice left for the President now is 'escalation or
disengagement.'"

Support does not constitute a kindergartner scribbling pics for soldiers or
slapping stickers on large gas hog trucks and cars, or loobying for better
helmets to protect from neurlogic trauma.

Support is shared sacrifice via a draft and when the inevitable draft is
instituted, the outcry to bring 'em home will wake the slumbering
indifferent beyond the pale public.

CH


"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ozyo3U2%23GHA.3456@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Why don't you turn your considerable efforts to rail about "big oil" on an
> appropriate newsgroup or chat room?
>
> You surely (Shirley) must drive a car!
>
> --
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Urban
> Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
> (For email, remove the obvious from my address)
>
> Quote from George Ankner:
> If you knew as much as you think you know,
> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>
> "xfile" <cou-cou@remove.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:e85H8M2%23GHA.3480@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> Sometimes it's just fun.
>>
>> Yes, this is why I couldn't help to join
>>
>>> This is capitalism, companies are driven by greed and profit motive.
>>
>> Wrong - seriously wrong. Refer to any basic economics books if you wish.
>> We are living in a market economy and a socialist capitalism, if you wish
>> to call it.
>>
>> In pure capitalism as it was the case in 18th century, you don't have
>> minimum wage, you don't have labor union, you don't get pay leave, and
>> you don't have anti-trust laws, and the list can go on and on.
>>
>> And profit does not equal to greed. Profit doesn't mean you can earn
>> what you don't deserved.
>>
>> The way you interpreted profit-oriented companies would only make a
>> businessman like myself feel ashamed.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> news:unjHx81%23GHA.924@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> Sometimes it's just fun.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best of Luck,
>>>
>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>>>
>>> "John Barnes" <jbarnes@email.net> wrote in message
>>> news:O$vYty1%23GHA.1784@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>
>>>> Good answers, but why butt your head against a brick wall. Microsoft
>>>> haters will always ignore/hate licenses, think profit is greed and
>>>> piracy (stealing) is okay.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>