Ed Bott & George Ou: Vista Upgrade Questions Unanswered by MSFT

MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589

What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
Ed Bott
January 29th, 2007

"A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm flags.
Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which documents a
change in the setup process for upgrade versions of Windows Vista. The
article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to perform a clean
installation of Windows Vista."

Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing
decisions without considering how people actually use their products."

George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking' moments
for Microsoft management."

I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself is
ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:

A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk by
repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.

So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using the
upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a retail
Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product key, as you
can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista to its own
directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating current
settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean install"?

The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows." At
least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows Vista
that have been distributed to the public and the press have been full retail
copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has actually seen one
of these upgrade disks and documented the experience. Everything written so
far is just speculation until those disks are in customers' hands tomorrow.
This may turn out to be a headache, as predicted. Or it may turn out to be
much ado about nothing.

Stay tuned."


Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
George Ou
January 29, 2007

Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not permit
"clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade editions.
Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad?This is another
one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft management
similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail version of Vista to
one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of their ridiculous license
change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and others picked up on the story.
So Vista Upgrade Edition should really be called Vista "Not Clean" "time
waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A reader clarifies that you can
technically do a clean install by telling Vista to wipe the hard drive
before installing after it confirms a full copy of Windows XP is installed.
This however is still lame because you can't just install Vista on a freshly
formatted hard drive and it will still be a huge time waster.]

In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so long as
the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software. These
new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped out will
lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000 was
present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?

Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem is
that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to the
promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping season
with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't told
that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade coupons were
used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the holiday 2006
shopping season when many people would have probably opted to wait until
after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about these new
restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big shock after
they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of Vista won't
install without XP on the computer.

So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on a new
computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two copies of
Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a company has to make
money off of a commercial Operating System, surely Microsoft could have
worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to turn in their old
Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista DVD and then
blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage. This would be
a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista and no one should
expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of one.

But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because Vista is
launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade with no
way to do clean installs have probably already been manufactured. If
Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean installs
of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the promise of Vista
coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should allow these people
to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where the old XP serial
number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is shipped to them.
That would seem to be the least they can do.



Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"

January 29th, 2007

CH

MSFT has blocked your ability to repair Vista in two major ways it turns
out:

1) If you do not get a Vista DVD (Dell says you will from them) when you pay
$1000-2000 for your new Vista preloaded computer today, tonight or in the
future you cannot access the repair modalities I describe below from Win RE
on the Vista DVD or the Windows Repair Environment.

2) If you buy an Upgrade DVD.

See below:

And with all the excellent upgrade posts here, including Colin Barnhorst's I
haven't seen this little issue raised. Suppose that you cannot use Win RE's
major components to repair Vista which would be Startup Repair, System
Restore *from Win RE which I find superior to SR using the Volume Shadow
system adapted from the Windows Server environment, restoring the boot
sector using the bootsect /nt52 SYS from the Windows Recovery Environment
discussed in the MSKB directly below

How to troubleshoot scenarios in which the rollback phase was unsuccessful
after you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927523/en-us

and something that has not been mentioned that I can tell to date on this
group or much in the TBT groups:

How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392/en-us

Startup Repair can also be used when there is not a problem booting into
Windows Vista and when it works which is not all the time (you should repeat
2-3 times if it does not) fix major broken Vista components:

A Stop error occurs, or the computer stops responding when you try to start
Windows Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810/en-us

So suppose all these repair modalities used correctly and I emphasize there
are a minority of times when Startup Repair may need to be tried, i.e.
repeated 2-3 times until it works, and you have this scnario mentioned by
George Ou on his ZDNET blog this morning (January 29, 2007) in my time zone:

(I would think you could avoid a lot of "Geek Squad" money by the way by
simply searching this group, the setup group and the other MSFT Vista public
groups using View>Find):

From George Ou and a point that has not been raised that I can tell on this
group or the setup group and certainly has not been touched by Jill Zoeller
or Darrel Gorter who occasionally particpate here from MSFT:

From:
January 29th, 2007
Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

by George Ou

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589


"These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000
was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any reason
will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?"


MSFT's current MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx

Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:

Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp

What's the real story with Vista upgrades?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189

Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589

CH


"Chad Harris" <fixvista-itneedsit.net> wrote in message
news:eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:
>
> How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us
>
> MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx
>
> Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:
>
> Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista
>
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp
>
> What's the real story with Vista upgrades?
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189
>
> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
>
> What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
> Ed Bott
> January 29th, 2007
>
> "A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm
> flags. Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which
> documents a change in the setup process for upgrade versions of Windows
> Vista. The article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to
> perform a clean installation of Windows Vista."
>
> Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing
> decisions without considering how people actually use their products."
>
> George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking' moments
> for Microsoft management."
>
> I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself is
> ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
> optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
> installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:
>
> A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk by
> repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
> operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.
>
> So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
> bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using the
> upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a
> retail Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product key,
> as you can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista to its own
> directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating current
> settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean install"?
>
> The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows." At
> least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows Vista
> that have been distributed to the public and the press have been full
> retail copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has actually
> seen one of these upgrade disks and documented the experience. Everything
> written so far is just speculation until those disks are in customers'
> hands tomorrow. This may turn out to be a headache, as predicted. Or it
> may turn out to be much ado about nothing.
>
> Stay tuned."
>
>
> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
> George Ou
> January 29, 2007
>
> Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not
> permit "clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade
> editions. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad?This
> is another one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft
> management similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail
> version of Vista to one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of their
> ridiculous license change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and others
> picked up on the story. So Vista Upgrade Edition should really be called
> Vista "Not Clean" "time waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A reader
> clarifies that you can technically do a clean install by telling Vista to
> wipe the hard drive before installing after it confirms a full copy of
> Windows XP is installed. This however is still lame because you can't just
> install Vista on a freshly formatted hard drive and it will still be a
> huge time waster.]
>
> In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
> allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so long
> as the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software.
> These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
> out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000
> was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any
> reason will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after
> a hard drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard
> drive and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install
> Vista on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If
> you're paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra
> hour of labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows
> XP. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for
> everyone?
>
> Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
> Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem is
> that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to the
> promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping season
> with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't told
> that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade coupons were
> used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the holiday 2006
> shopping season when many people would have probably opted to wait until
> after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about these new
> restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big shock after
> they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of Vista won't
> install without XP on the computer.
>
> So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
> possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
> running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on a
> new computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two
> copies of Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a company
> has to make money off of a commercial Operating System, surely Microsoft
> could have worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to turn in
> their old Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista DVD and
> then blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage. This
> would be a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista and no one
> should expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of one.
>
> But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because Vista
> is launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade
> with no way to do clean installs have probably already been manufactured.
> If Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean
> installs of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the promise of
> Vista coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should allow
> these people to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where the
> old XP serial number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is
> shipped to them. That would seem to be the least they can do.
>
>
>
> Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"
>
> January 29th, 2007
>
> CH

I beleive Darrel told us months ago that WinRE is available when you boot a
retail dvd no matter what box (upgrade or full) it came out of because all
retail dvd's are exactly the same.

"Chad Harris" <fixvista-itneedsit.net> wrote in message
news:%239bp%2339QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> MSFT has blocked your ability to repair Vista in two major ways it turns
> out:
>
> 1) If you do not get a Vista DVD (Dell says you will from them) when you
> pay $1000-2000 for your new Vista preloaded computer today, tonight or in
> the future you cannot access the repair modalities I describe below from
> Win RE on the Vista DVD or the Windows Repair Environment.
>
> 2) If you buy an Upgrade DVD.
>
> See below:
>
> And with all the excellent upgrade posts here, including Colin Barnhorst's
> I
> haven't seen this little issue raised. Suppose that you cannot use Win
> RE's
> major components to repair Vista which would be Startup Repair, System
> Restore *from Win RE which I find superior to SR using the Volume Shadow
> system adapted from the Windows Server environment, restoring the boot
> sector using the bootsect /nt52 SYS from the Windows Recovery Environment
> discussed in the MSKB directly below
>
> How to troubleshoot scenarios in which the rollback phase was unsuccessful
> after you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927523/en-us
>
> and something that has not been mentioned that I can tell to date on this
> group or much in the TBT groups:
>
> How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
> troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392/en-us
>
> Startup Repair can also be used when there is not a problem booting into
> Windows Vista and when it works which is not all the time (you should
> repeat
> 2-3 times if it does not) fix major broken Vista components:
>
> A Stop error occurs, or the computer stops responding when you try to
> start
> Windows Vista
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810/en-us
>
> So suppose all these repair modalities used correctly and I emphasize
> there
> are a minority of times when Startup Repair may need to be tried, i.e.
> repeated 2-3 times until it works, and you have this scnario mentioned by
> George Ou on his ZDNET blog this morning (January 29, 2007) in my time
> zone:
>
> (I would think you could avoid a lot of "Geek Squad" money by the way by
> simply searching this group, the setup group and the other MSFT Vista
> public
> groups using View>Find):
>
> From George Ou and a point that has not been raised that I can tell on
> this
> group or the setup group and certainly has not been touched by Jill
> Zoeller
> or Darrel Gorter who occasionally particpate here from MSFT:
>
> From:
> January 29th, 2007
> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
>
> by George Ou
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
>
>
> "These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
> out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or 2000
> was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any
> reason
> will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a hard
> drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard drive
> and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install Vista
> on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
> paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
> labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP. Will
> Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?"
>
>
> MSFT's current MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:
>
> How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us
>
> MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx
>
> Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:
>
> Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista
>
> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp
>
> What's the real story with Vista upgrades?
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189
>
> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
>
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
>
> CH
>
>
> "Chad Harris" <fixvista-itneedsit.net> wrote in message
> news:eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:
>>
>> How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us
>>
>> MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx
>>
>> Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:
>>
>> Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista
>>
>> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp
>>
>> What's the real story with Vista upgrades?
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189
>>
>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
>>
>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
>>
>> What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
>> Ed Bott
>> January 29th, 2007
>>
>> "A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm
>> flags. Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which
>> documents a change in the setup process for upgrade versions of Windows
>> Vista. The article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to
>> perform a clean installation of Windows Vista."
>>
>> Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made licensing
>> decisions without considering how people actually use their products."
>>
>> George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking' moments
>> for Microsoft management."
>>
>> I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself is
>> ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
>> optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
>> installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:
>>
>> A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk by
>> repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
>> operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.
>>
>> So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
>> bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using the
>> upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a
>> retail Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product
>> key, as you can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista to
>> its own directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating
>> current settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean
>> install"?
>>
>> The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows." At
>> least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows
>> Vista that have been distributed to the public and the press have been
>> full retail copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has
>> actually seen one of these upgrade disks and documented the experience.
>> Everything written so far is just speculation until those disks are in
>> customers' hands tomorrow. This may turn out to be a headache, as
>> predicted. Or it may turn out to be much ado about nothing.
>>
>> Stay tuned."
>>
>>
>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
>> George Ou
>> January 29, 2007
>>
>> Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not
>> permit "clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade
>> editions. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad?This
>> is another one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft
>> management similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail
>> version of Vista to one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of
>> their ridiculous license change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and
>> others picked up on the story. So Vista Upgrade Edition should really be
>> called Vista "Not Clean" "time waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A
>> reader clarifies that you can technically do a clean install by telling
>> Vista to wipe the hard drive before installing after it confirms a full
>> copy of Windows XP is installed. This however is still lame because you
>> can't just install Vista on a freshly formatted hard drive and it will
>> still be a huge time waster.]
>>
>> In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
>> allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so long
>> as the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software.
>> These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been stamped
>> out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or
>> 2000 was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for
>> any reason will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery
>> after a hard drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe
>> their hard drive and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and
>> then install Vista on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour
>> wasted. If you're paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will
>> mean an extra hour of labor that will be billed to you for the
>> installation of Windows XP. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab
>> from Geek Squad for everyone?
>>
>> Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
>> Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem is
>> that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to the
>> promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping season
>> with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't
>> told that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade coupons
>> were used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the holiday
>> 2006 shopping season when many people would have probably opted to wait
>> until after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about
>> these new restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big
>> shock after they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of
>> Vista won't install without XP on the computer.
>>
>> So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
>> possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
>> running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on a
>> new computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two
>> copies of Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a company
>> has to make money off of a commercial Operating System, surely Microsoft
>> could have worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to turn
>> in their old Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista DVD
>> and then blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage.
>> This would be a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista and
>> no one should expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of one.
>>
>> But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because Vista
>> is launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade
>> with no way to do clean installs have probably already been manufactured.
>> If Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean
>> installs of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the promise
>> of Vista coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should allow
>> these people to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where the
>> old XP serial number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is
>> shipped to them. That would seem to be the least they can do.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"
>>
>> January 29th, 2007
>>
>> CH
>

Hello,
Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
detemines the behavior..
Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD and
get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's bootable or
not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not supposed
to be bootable)

Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
|>From: "Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst@msn.com>
|>References: <eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>
<#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
|>In-Reply-To: <#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
|>Subject: Re: How MSFT has blocked your repairing Vista--if No DVD or
Upgrade DVD
|>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:43:37 -0700
|>Lines: 263
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|>Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
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|>Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:24923
|>X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>
|>I beleive Darrel told us months ago that WinRE is available when you boot
a
|>retail dvd no matter what box (upgrade or full) it came out of because
all
|>retail dvd's are exactly the same.
|>
|>"Chad Harris" <fixvista-itneedsit.net> wrote in message
|>news:%239bp%2339QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
|>>
|>> MSFT has blocked your ability to repair Vista in two major ways it
turns
|>> out:
|>>
|>> 1) If you do not get a Vista DVD (Dell says you will from them) when
you
|>> pay $1000-2000 for your new Vista preloaded computer today, tonight or
in
|>> the future you cannot access the repair modalities I describe below
from
|>> Win RE on the Vista DVD or the Windows Repair Environment.
|>>
|>> 2) If you buy an Upgrade DVD.
|>>
|>> See below:
|>>
|>> And with all the excellent upgrade posts here, including Colin
Barnhorst's
|>> I
|>> haven't seen this little issue raised. Suppose that you cannot use Win
|>> RE's
|>> major components to repair Vista which would be Startup Repair, System
|>> Restore *from Win RE which I find superior to SR using the Volume Shadow
|>> system adapted from the Windows Server environment, restoring the boot
|>> sector using the bootsect /nt52 SYS from the Windows Recovery
Environment
|>> discussed in the MSKB directly below
|>>
|>> How to troubleshoot scenarios in which the rollback phase was
unsuccessful
|>> after you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista
|>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927523/en-us
|>>
|>> and something that has not been mentioned that I can tell to date on
this
|>> group or much in the TBT groups:
|>>
|>> How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
|>> troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista
|>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392/en-us
|>>
|>> Startup Repair can also be used when there is not a problem booting into
|>> Windows Vista and when it works which is not all the time (you should
|>> repeat
|>> 2-3 times if it does not) fix major broken Vista components:
|>>
|>> A Stop error occurs, or the computer stops responding when you try to
|>> start
|>> Windows Vista
|>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925810/en-us
|>>
|>> So suppose all these repair modalities used correctly and I emphasize
|>> there
|>> are a minority of times when Startup Repair may need to be tried, i.e.
|>> repeated 2-3 times until it works, and you have this scnario mentioned
by
|>> George Ou on his ZDNET blog this morning (January 29, 2007) in my time
|>> zone:
|>>
|>> (I would think you could avoid a lot of "Geek Squad" money by the way by
|>> simply searching this group, the setup group and the other MSFT Vista
|>> public
|>> groups using View>Find):
|>>
|>> From George Ou and a point that has not been raised that I can tell on
|>> this
|>> group or the setup group and certainly has not been touched by Jill
|>> Zoeller
|>> or Darrel Gorter who occasionally particpate here from MSFT:
|>>
|>> From:
|>> January 29th, 2007
|>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
|>>
|>> by George Ou
|>>
|>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
|>>
|>>
|>> "These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been
stamped
|>> out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or
2000
|>> was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for any
|>> reason
|>> will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster recovery after a
hard
|>> drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe their hard
drive
|>> and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first and then install
Vista
|>> on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an hour wasted. If you're
|>> paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will mean an extra hour of
|>> labor that will be billed to you for the installation of Windows XP.
Will
|>> Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek Squad for everyone?"
|>>
|>>
|>> MSFT's current MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:
|>>
|>> How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
|>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us
|>>
|>> MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
|>>
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...grade/upgradep
aths.mspx
|>>
|>> Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:
|>>
|>> Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista
|>>
|>> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp
|>>
|>> What's the real story with Vista upgrades?
|>>
|>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189
|>>
|>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
|>>
|>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
|>>
|>> CH
|>>
|>>
|>> "Chad Harris" <fixvista-itneedsit.net> wrote in message
|>> news:eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
|>>> MSFT's curreng MSKB covering Upgrades and leaving much out:
|>>>
|>>> How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
|>>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us
|>>>
|>>> MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
|>>>
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...grade/upgradep
aths.mspx
|>>>
|>>> Extreme Tech's article on Vista Upgrades:
|>>>
|>>> Upgrade From Windows XP to Vista
|>>>
|>>> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2082979,00.asp
|>>>
|>>> What's the real story with Vista upgrades?
|>>>
|>>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=189
|>>>
|>>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
|>>>
|>>> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=414&tag=nl.e589
|>>>
|>>> What's the Real Story With Vista Upgrades?
|>>> Ed Bott
|>>> January 29th, 2007
|>>>
|>>> "A story by Ken Fisher on Ars Technica this morning is raising alarm
|>>> flags. Fisher points to Microsoft Knowledge Base article 930985, which
|>>> documents a change in the setup process for upgrade versions of
Windows
|>>> Vista. The article's title reads: "You cannot use an upgrade key to
|>>> perform a clean installation of Windows Vista."
|>>>
|>>> Fisher concludes, "[Once] again, Microsoft appears to have made
licensing
|>>> decisions without considering how people actually use their products."
|>>>
|>>> George Ou calls it "another one of those 'what were you thinking'
moments
|>>> for Microsoft management."
|>>>
|>>> I'm not certain what's actually going on here. The KB article itself
is
|>>> ambiguous. In Microsoft's world, a clean install requires booting from
|>>> optical media (CD or DVD). Here's Microsoft's definition of a clean
|>>> installation, as contained in an earlier KB article:
|>>>
|>>> A clean installation refers to removing all data from your hard disk
by
|>>> repartitioning and reformatting your hard disk and reinstalling the
|>>> operating system and programs to an empty (clean) hard disk.
|>>>
|>>> So how is the upgrade media going to work? It sounds like it won't be
|>>> bootable, which means that you won't be able to start your PC using
the
|>>> upgrade DVD. Will it include the disk management tools included on a
|>>> retail Vista DVD? Will you be able to install Vista without a product
|>>> key, as you can with a retail DVD? Will you be able to install Vista
to
|>>> its own directory or to an existing disk partition without migrating
|>>> current settings - what most people outside Redmond consider a "clean
|>>> install"?
|>>>
|>>> The answer to all those questions, at this point, is "Nobody knows."
At
|>>> least, nobody outside of Redmond. So far, the only copies of Windows
|>>> Vista that have been distributed to the public and the press have been
|>>> full retail copies. I have yet to hear from a single source that has
|>>> actually seen one of these upgrade disks and documented the
experience.
|>>> Everything written so far is just speculation until those disks are in
|>>> customers' hands tomorrow. This may turn out to be a headache, as
|>>> predicted. Or it may turn out to be much ado about nothing.
|>>>
|>>> Stay tuned."
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> Vista Upgrade Edition is lame by design
|>>> George Ou
|>>> January 29, 2007
|>>>
|>>> Arstechnica is reporting that Windows Vista Upgrade edition will not
|>>> permit "clean" installs like all previous versions of Windows Upgrade
|>>> editions. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab from Geek
Squad?This
|>>> is another one of those "what were you thinking" moments for Microsoft
|>>> management similar to their bone headed decision to lock the retail
|>>> version of Vista to one hardware migration. Microsoft backed out of
|>>> their ridiculous license change after Ed Bott sounded the alarm and
|>>> others picked up on the story. So Vista Upgrade Edition should really
be
|>>> called Vista "Not Clean" "time waster" Edition. [Update 4:10AM - A
|>>> reader clarifies that you can technically do a clean install by
telling
|>>> Vista to wipe the hard drive before installing after it confirms a
full
|>>> copy of Windows XP is installed. This however is still lame because
you
|>>> can't just install Vista on a freshly formatted hard drive and it will
|>>> still be a huge time waster.]
|>>>
|>>> In the past, Microsoft has always respected their customer's time and
|>>> allowed upgrade versions of Windows to install on a fresh machine so
long
|>>> as the customer could provide proof of possession of the old software.
|>>> These new Vista Upgrade DVDs which I'm assuming have already been
stamped
|>>> out will lack the ability to install on a system unless Windows XP or
|>>> 2000 was present. This means anyone looking to do a fresh install for
|>>> any reason will not be able to. Someone who is doing disaster
recovery
|>>> after a hard drive failure or a virus infection won't be able to wipe
|>>> their hard drive and install Vista, they'll have to install XP first
and
|>>> then install Vista on top of XP. That could easily mean nearly an
hour
|>>> wasted. If you're paying someone to rebuild your computer, this will
|>>> mean an extra hour of labor that will be billed to you for the
|>>> installation of Windows XP. Will Microsoft pick up the extra hour tab
|>>> from Geek Squad for everyone?
|>>>
|>>> Some might just say tough; you don't have to buy Windows Vista Upgrade
|>>> Edition if you don't like the terms of the agreement. But the problem
is
|>>> that there are probably already millions of people who bought in to
the
|>>> promise of Vista upgrade coupons during this last holiday shopping
season
|>>> with their new computers or their copy of Windows XP and they weren't
|>>> told that the upgrade terms have been changed. The Vista Upgrade
coupons
|>>> were used to lure people in to buying brand new computers for the
holiday
|>>> 2006 shopping season when many people would have probably opted to
wait
|>>> until after Vista launches at the end of January had they known about
|>>> these new restrictions. Now these people are going to be in for a big
|>>> shock after they wipe their computers and find out that their copy of
|>>> Vista won't install without XP on the computer.
|>>>
|>>> So why is Microsoft making a bone headed decision like this? One
|>>> possibility is that Microsoft is afraid that people might try to keep
|>>> running XP or Media Center on their existing machines and use Vista on
a
|>>> new computer. This would mean that Microsoft would be giving away two
|>>> copies of Windows for the price of one. While I realize that a
company
|>>> has to make money off of a commercial Operating System, surely
Microsoft
|>>> could have worked out a better arrangement. Why not ask people to
turn
|>>> in their old Windows XP serial number when they get their Full Vista
DVD
|>>> and then blacklist that serial number from Windows Genuine Advantage.
|>>> This would be a fair free trade-up from Windows XP to Windows Vista
and
|>>> no one should expect to get two versions of Windows for the price of
one.
|>>>
|>>> But it could be too late for Microsoft to avoid a backlash because
Vista
|>>> is launching at the end of today and all those copies of Vista Upgrade
|>>> with no way to do clean installs have probably already been
manufactured.
|>>> If Microsoft wants to set things right for people who want to do clean
|>>> installs of Windows Vista especially those who bought in to the
promise
|>>> of Vista coupons during this last holiday season, Microsoft should
allow
|>>> these people to opt for a trade-up to the full version of Vista where
the
|>>> old XP serial number is blacklisted on WGA 30 days after the Vista is
|>>> shipped to them. That would seem to be the least they can do.
|>>>
|>>>
|>>>
|>>> Sould Microsoft allow a full trade-up to Vista?"
|>>>
|>>> January 29th, 2007
|>>>
|>>> CH
|>>
|>
|>

Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
> Hello,
> Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
> detemines the behavior..
> Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD and
> get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
> The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
> Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's bootable or
> not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not supposed
> to be bootable)
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
>

Hi Darrell.

Why would the volume license media not be bootable?

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"Nope. Just CLUELESS ****S LIKE YOU too stupid to work it out. Thank
the bittorent brigade."

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

Hello,
Onl;y the upgrade volume media may not be bootable.
Since all Volume License media is assumed that you have a compliant OS
license already.
The VL licenses are for upgrade media licensing even though you can request
full media, the license is still upgrade.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
|>From: Nina DiBoy <nin@di.boy>
|>Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>Subject: Re: How MSFT has blocked your repairing Vista--if No DVD or
Upgrade
|> DVD
|>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:13:29 -0600
|>Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
|>Lines: 31
|>Message-ID: <epoqjo$3qv$1@aioe.org>
|>References: <eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>
<#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
<u1D68hBRHHA.4404@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>
<Ow3cdYJRHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl>
|>NNTP-Posting-Host: rYp1t+S3FYRG/mSujoIWjQ.user.aioe.org
|>Mime-Version: 1.0
|>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
|>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|>X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org
|>In-Reply-To:
|>User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207)
|>Path:
TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTFEEDS01.phx.gbl!newsfeed0
0.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1.de.telia.net!newspeer4.de.telia.net!
de.telia.net!aioe.org!not-for-mail
|>Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:25906
|>X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>
|>Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
|>> Hello,
|>> Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
|>> detemines the behavior..
|>> Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD
and
|>> get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
|>> The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
|>> Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's
bootable or
|>> not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not
supposed
|>> to be bootable)
|>>
|>> Thanks,
|>> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
|>>
|>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
|>>
|>
|>Hi Darrell.
|>
|>Why would the volume license media not be bootable?
|>
|>--
|>Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
|>http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html
|>
|>Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
|>"Nope. Just CLUELESS ****S LIKE YOU too stupid to work it out. Thank
|>the bittorent brigade."
|>
|>"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
|>- T. S. Eliot
|>

Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
> Hello,
> Onl;y the upgrade volume media may not be bootable.
> Since all Volume License media is assumed that you have a compliant OS
> license already.
> The VL licenses are for upgrade media licensing even though you can request
> full media, the license is still upgrade.
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights

Is there anyway to use the VL upgrade media/licence to do a full, clean
fresh install?

> --------------------
> |>From: Nina DiBoy <nin@di.boy>
> |>Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
> |>Subject: Re: How MSFT has blocked your repairing Vista--if No DVD or
> Upgrade
> |> DVD
> |>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:13:29 -0600
> |>Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
> |>Lines: 31
> |>Message-ID: <epoqjo$3qv$1@aioe.org>
> |>References: <eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>
> <#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
> <u1D68hBRHHA.4404@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>
> <Ow3cdYJRHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl>
> |>NNTP-Posting-Host: rYp1t+S3FYRG/mSujoIWjQ.user.aioe.org
> |>Mime-Version: 1.0
> |>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> |>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> |>X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org
> |>In-Reply-To:
> |>User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207)
> |>Path:
> TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTFEEDS01.phx.gbl!newsfeed0
> 0.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1.de.telia.net!newspeer4.de.telia.net!
> de.telia.net!aioe.org!not-for-mail
> |>Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:25906
> |>X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
> |>
> |>Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
> |>> Hello,
> |>> Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
> |>> detemines the behavior..
> |>> Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD
> and
> |>> get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
> |>> The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
> |>> Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's
> bootable or
> |>> not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not
> supposed
> |>> to be bootable)
> |>>
> |>> Thanks,
> |>> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
> |>>
> |>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights
> |>
> |>Hi Darrell.
> |>
> |>Why would the volume license media not be bootable?
> |>



--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

Hello,
Why? when you can request the full media instead?
Since Volume License Upgrade is not bootable, your options are limited, so
just request full media.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
|>From: Nina DiBoy <nin@di.boy>
|>Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>Subject: Re: How MSFT has blocked your repairing Vista--if No DVD or
Upgrade
|> DVD
|>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:00:26 -0600
|>Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
|>Lines: 76
|>Message-ID: <epqlfq$f37$1@aioe.org>
|>References: <eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>
<#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
<u1D68hBRHHA.4404@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>
<Ow3cdYJRHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl> <epoqjo$3qv$1@aioe.org>
<suil8NORHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl>
|>NNTP-Posting-Host: D1fZ/3G+2PqNUka41YI5Pw.user.aioe.org
|>Mime-Version: 1.0
|>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
|>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|>X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org
|>In-Reply-To:
|>User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207)
|>Path:
TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTFEEDS01.phx.gbl!newsfeed0
0.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.karotte.org!news2.arglkargh.de!news.cnetm
.de!news.motzarella.org!aioe.org!not-for-mail
|>Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:26482
|>X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>
|>Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
|>> Hello,
|>> Onl;y the upgrade volume media may not be bootable.
|>> Since all Volume License media is assumed that you have a compliant OS
|>> license already.
|>> The VL licenses are for upgrade media licensing even though you can
request
|>> full media, the license is still upgrade.
|>> Thanks,
|>> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
|>>
|>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
|>
|>Is there anyway to use the VL upgrade media/licence to do a full, clean
|>fresh install?
|>
|>> --------------------
|>> |>From: Nina DiBoy <nin@di.boy>
|>> |>Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>> |>Subject: Re: How MSFT has blocked your repairing Vista--if No DVD or
|>> Upgrade
|>> |> DVD
|>> |>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:13:29 -0600
|>> |>Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
|>> |>Lines: 31
|>> |>Message-ID: <epoqjo$3qv$1@aioe.org>
|>> |>References: <eZmSok9QHHA.4692@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>
|>> <#9bp#39QHHA.4000@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
|>> <u1D68hBRHHA.4404@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>
|>> <Ow3cdYJRHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl>
|>> |>NNTP-Posting-Host: rYp1t+S3FYRG/mSujoIWjQ.user.aioe.org
|>> |>Mime-Version: 1.0
|>> |>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
|>> |>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|>> |>X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org
|>> |>In-Reply-To:
|>> |>User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207)
|>> |>Path:
|>>
TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTFEEDS01.phx.gbl!newsfeed0
|>>
0.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1.de.telia.net!newspeer4.de.telia.net!
|>> de.telia.net!aioe.org!not-for-mail
|>> |>Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl
microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:25906
|>> |>X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
|>> |>
|>> |>Darrell Gorter[MSFT] wrote:
|>> |>> Hello,
|>> |>> Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product
key
|>> |>> detemines the behavior..
|>> |>> Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade
DVD
|>> and
|>> |>> get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
|>> |>> The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License
Upgrade
|>> |>> Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's
|>> bootable or
|>> |>> not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not
|>> supposed
|>> |>> to be bootable)
|>> |>>
|>> |>> Thanks,
|>> |>> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
|>> |>>
|>> |>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
|>> rights
|>> |>
|>> |>Hi Darrell.
|>> |>
|>> |>Why would the volume license media not be bootable?
|>> |>
|>
|>
|>
|>--
|>Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
|>http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html
|>
|>"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
|>- T. S. Eliot
|>

Darrell--

That's good news:

"Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
detemines the behavior..
Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD and
get to WinRE to use the repair functionality."

But..what possible reason could there be for this crazy inconsistency if
it's true? If I understand this correctly, if it's not bootable, then
people who buy upgrade media via volume licensing are not able to access the
Win RE recovery tools. What possible logic could there be in this?

"The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's bootable or
not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not supposed
to be bootable)"

Okay. Having read the rest of the thread I assume then that the solution is
to request full media in that situation. I hope that's correct.

"Hello,
Why? when you can request the full media instead?
Since Volume License Upgrade is not bootable, your options are limited, so
just request full media.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"

And you've clarified that if you aren't in the volume license scenario with
upgraded media that upgrade media is bootable and Win RE equipped.

There is a real need for someone appropriate on one of your teams, or a
writer on one of your teams to write a comprehensive FAQ or article on
upgrade scenarios and put it in an easily located place on MSFT's site or to
supplement the current vague Upgrade section on the Vista MSKB below:

How to install Windows Vista (See upgrade section of this MSKB)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918884/en-us

MSFT's Current Upgrade to Vista Page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...radepaths.mspx

Thanks very much,

CH

""Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"" <Darrellg@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:Ow3cdYJRHHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl...
> Hello,
> Correct. Retail and upgrade media should be the same. The product key
> detemines the behavior..
> Both are bootable, both contain WinRE. You can boot to the Upgrade DVD
> and
> get to WinRE to use the repair functionality
> The only media that may not be bootable is the Volume License Upgrade
> Media. ( I don't have a copy of that media to test whether it's bootable
> or
> not, but I have been told that Volume License Upgrade media is not
> supposed
> to be bootable)
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>
> This posting is provided