Vista - Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade Edition licensing and clean install questions.

1. I read a few articles saying that you could no longer perform a "clean"
install using most of the flavours of Vista. There was no mention of the
Ultimate Edition. Does that mean it is possible to do a clean install with
Vista Ultimate Upgrade Edn?

2. Today some articles have appeared saying Windows Vista Upgrade editions
disable your old XP key? For me this is a complete departure from expected
Microsoft behaviour. I understood in the past one could always go back to
using one's old OS. What if I install Vista find it does not work with "X"
software etc., and I want to go back to Windows XP?

3. I specifically choose the "Upgrade" edition over the "OEM" edition
because I wanted to have the option of going X64 without having to get a
separate license in the future. For the priviliege of that decision I am
paying 380 Euros rather than a lot less for the OEM edition. If I cannot
perform a clean install, I will be seriously annoyed.

4. Some articles talking about the "clean" install issue have commented you
can tell the install to install to a separate directory. Now I now this is
being anally retentive, but how does this work, does it actually rename the
old windows and program files directories to something else and then create
fresh ones? I do want some funky winvista directory and some sort of merged
Frankenstein program files directory. I want nice clean directories with no
crud.

5. I wish Microsoft has made all these sort of changes to the upgrade
edition a lot clearer and actually provided those editions during the beta
test programme so we could found out about them then, and more importantly
*tested* them then so that we would have known what was coming. I hope I
have not gone out and bought an upgrade Turkey (and an expensive one at
that), when maybe two copies of the OEM edition (x86 and x64 would have only
cost me a little more) might have suited me a lot better.

--
Francis Bacon

Percy Cuscaden wrote:
> 1. I read a few articles saying that you could no longer perform a "clean"
> install using most of the flavours of Vista. There was no mention of the
> Ultimate Edition. Does that mean it is possible to do a clean install with
> Vista Ultimate Upgrade Edn?

From that standpoint, there is no difference in Vista Ultimate. There is
some variation if you are using the 32 or 64 bit version, but in either case
an upgrade requires the previous version be installed. The difference
between 32 and 64 is whether you must start the upgrade from within Windows
XP or if you can boot from the Vista DVD and start the install.

> 2. Today some articles have appeared saying Windows Vista Upgrade editions
> disable your old XP key? For me this is a complete departure from expected
> Microsoft behaviour. I understood in the past one could always go back to
> using one's old OS. What if I install Vista find it does not work with "X"
> software etc., and I want to go back to Windows XP?

Miswording in the articles. It doesn't disable your XP key, but like an XP
upgrade over Windows 2000, the XP license becomes part of the Vista license
and, to be in compliance with the license, can no longer be installed on a
different machine. If you need to completely reinstall everything, meaning
you reinstall XP and then re-upgrade to Vista, you will be able to do so.

> 3. I specifically choose the "Upgrade" edition over the "OEM" edition
> because I wanted to have the option of going X64 without having to get a
> separate license in the future. For the priviliege of that decision I am
> paying 380 Euros rather than a lot less for the OEM edition. If I cannot
> perform a clean install, I will be seriously annoyed.

There is no option for a true "clean" install using the upgrade edition, you
need to have a previous version of Windows installed on the PC before you
can install the upgrade version of Vista.

> 4. Some articles talking about the "clean" install issue have commented
> you can tell the install to install to a separate directory. Now I now
> this is being anally retentive, but how does this work, does it actually
> rename the old windows and program files directories to something else
> and then create fresh ones? I do want some funky winvista directory and
> some sort of merged Frankenstein program files directory. I want nice
> clean directories with no crud.

That is not available in all scenarios. When it is available, your old
Windows installation will be placed into a folder called Windows.old.
However you should learn more about how Vista does an upgrade as it is
closer to a clean install and then import of files and settings than an
upgrade in the style of previous versions of Windows.

> 5. I wish Microsoft has made all these sort of changes to the upgrade
> edition a lot clearer and actually provided those editions during the beta
> test programme so we could found out about them then, and more importantly
> *tested* them then so that we would have known what was coming. I hope I
> have not gone out and bought an upgrade Turkey (and an expensive one at
> that), when maybe two copies of the OEM edition (x86 and x64 would have
> only cost me a little more) might have suited me a lot better.
--
Tom Porterfield

Tom Porterfield wrote:

> There is no option for a true "clean" install using the upgrade edition,
> you need to have a previous version of Windows installed on the PC before
> you can install the upgrade version of Vista.

Thanks for the reply Tom. Grrr to Microsoft for changing this. I looks like
I should have just got myself the OEM version.

>> 4. Some articles talking about the "clean" install issue have commented
>> you can tell the install to install to a separate directory. Now I now
>> this is being anally retentive, but how does this work, does it actually
>> rename the old windows and program files directories to something else
>> and then create fresh ones? I do want some funky winvista directory and
>> some sort of merged Frankenstein program files directory. I want nice
>> clean directories with no crud.
>
> That is not available in all scenarios. When it is available, your old
> Windows installation will be placed into a folder called Windows.old.
> However you should learn more about how Vista does an upgrade as it is
> closer to a clean install and then import of files and settings than an
> upgrade in the style of previous versions of Windows.

This sounds hopeful, however *when* (not if) I have to actually do a clean
install because I have a new HD/Machine the idea of having to install XP
first in order to install Vista is not appealing.

Oh well now I know. Stupid me for buying the Upgrade Edition like I have
done since Windows 95. I should have just bought the OEM edition.

--
Francis Bacon

Tom,

Allow me to jump in here to ask a question. You appear to have the best
answers from what I've been reading so far.....

I have WinXP Pro (32 bit verion) Volume license on one of my workstations
now and I would like to upgrade to Vista Ultimate x64 version 9retail). Can
I do it with the the Vista Ultimate Upgrade package (which has both 32 and
64 bit DVD's) or must I have a 64 bit version of WinXP installed?

I think the answer is that I can't and must buy the full package in order to
move to x64. I have some CAD and Photo applications that can benefit from a
64 bit OS running.

Thank you,

Bob S.

"Rock" said:
> To avoid the need to reinstall XP if Vista needs to be reinstalled image
> the system right after Vista is installed. Save that image. Then restore
> the image instead of doing the reinstall.
>
> OEM versions cannot be moved to another computer, so there is that
> downside.
>
> The installation of Vista is not a file by file copy, it's an image
> install so from that perspective every install of Vista is "clean". With
> the in place upgrade apps and data are then migrated to the Vista install.
> In a custom install using the upgrade, the old installation is wrapped up
> into a windows.old folder. Data can be retrieved from there if wanted,
> and then it can be deleted.

When you say "image" are we talking about something like a disk sector image
which would mean the partition you installed the "image" too would be wiped
with the data or is this some sort of funky new Microsoft image where we are
just talking about an image of the OS and these images can be restored onto
partitions without destroying the rest of the data on the partition?

I still think this new "upgrade" method is flawed, whereby you have to have
the old OS installed. If they stick with that plan, what happens when the
next OS after Vista comes out and we get that upgrade edition? Will we be
expected to install XP, to install Vista to then install the shiny new OS?

I can sort of understand why they are doing it from the "software
legitimacy" aspect, but their thinking seems broken to me. It seems we are
being made to jump through a lot of hoops just to prove to them that we are
legitimate. Surely once we have upgraded from a legitimate activated XP key,
and we then have to activate our Vista key, they could have then marked our
Vista key with some sort of marker on the activation server to say "Yes,
this guy has met the upgrade criteria." Then *when* (not if ) you have a
failure and need to re-install from scratch, you could install your upgrade
disk, and when it prompts you for your key it would go of to Activation HQ
and say "Oh, look this guy already went through the upgrade process once, he
is ok, onwards we go." Sicne we are being forced to use this activation
process, make it work for us too, not just for Microsoft.

I really want to know what they expect us to do when the next OS is out,
they cannot seriously expect us to chain back to XP and do two OS installs
to get to the shiny new OS each time we want to do this.

--
Francis Bacon

"Francis Bacon" wrote

> "Rock" said:
>> To avoid the need to reinstall XP if Vista needs to be reinstalled image
>> the system right after Vista is installed. Save that image. Then
>> restore the image instead of doing the reinstall.
>>
>> OEM versions cannot be moved to another computer, so there is that
>> downside.
>>
>> The installation of Vista is not a file by file copy, it's an image
>> install so from that perspective every install of Vista is "clean". With
>> the in place upgrade apps and data are then migrated to the Vista
>> install. In a custom install using the upgrade, the old installation is
>> wrapped up into a windows.old folder. Data can be retrieved from there
>> if wanted, and then it can be deleted.
>
> When you say "image" are we talking about something like a disk sector
> image which would mean the partition you installed the "image" too would
> be wiped with the data or is this some sort of funky new Microsoft image
> where we are just talking about an image of the OS and these images can be
> restored onto partitions without destroying the rest of the data on the
> partition?
>
> I still think this new "upgrade" method is flawed, whereby you have to
> have the old OS installed. If they stick with that plan, what happens when
> the next OS after Vista comes out and we get that upgrade edition? Will we
> be expected to install XP, to install Vista to then install the shiny new
> OS?
>
> I can sort of understand why they are doing it from the "software
> legitimacy" aspect, but their thinking seems broken to me. It seems we are
> being made to jump through a lot of hoops just to prove to them that we
> are legitimate. Surely once we have upgraded from a legitimate activated
> XP key, and we then have to activate our Vista key, they could have then
> marked our Vista key with some sort of marker on the activation server to
> say "Yes, this guy has met the upgrade criteria." Then *when* (not if )
> you have a failure and need to re-install from scratch, you could install
> your upgrade disk, and when it prompts you for your key it would go of to
> Activation HQ and say "Oh, look this guy already went through the upgrade
> process once, he is ok, onwards we go." Sicne we are being forced to use
> this activation process, make it work for us too, not just for Microsoft.

You're preaching to the choir here.

> I really want to know what they expect us to do when the next OS is out,
> they cannot seriously expect us to chain back to XP and do two OS installs
> to get to the shiny new OS each time we want to do this.

Currently, if you're starting from scratch with an upgrade edition of XP
which is based on Win98, and you want to go to Vista with an upgrade, then
you'd have to first invoke the XP install routine, insert the shiny win98 CD
for proof of qualifying OS, then do the upgrade to XP, then do the upgrade
to Vista (so don't toss that win98 media).

So yes, it is conceivable with the next OS you might have four OS's in the
chain. But this is just speculation. I don't know what will be done for
the next OS. Do you?

To avoid this get the full version or image the Vista install when it's new,
archive the image, and restore that if you need to reinstall the OS.





--
Rock [MVP - User/Shell]

BobS wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Allow me to jump in here to ask a question. You appear to have the best
> answers from what I've been reading so far.....
>
> I have WinXP Pro (32 bit verion) Volume license on one of my workstations
> now and I would like to upgrade to Vista Ultimate x64 version 9retail).
> Can I do it with the the Vista Ultimate Upgrade package (which has both
> 32 and 64 bit DVD's) or must I have a 64 bit version of WinXP installed?

You can do it with the 64 bit upgrade edition of Vista.

> I think the answer is that I can't and must buy the full package in order
> to move to x64. I have some CAD and Photo applications that can benefit
> from a 64 bit OS running.

Pop in the Vista upgrade DVD for x64 and off you go.
--
Tom Porterfield

Tom, can you do a clean install of Vista64 from the upgrade version? I have
WinXP32 and don't want an 'upgrade', I'd prefer to do a clean install... I'm
assuming the term upgrade only means you have to have a previous windows OS
license to get a new one for less than the retail version

"Tom Porterfield" wrote:

> BobS wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > Allow me to jump in here to ask a question. You appear to have the best
> > answers from what I've been reading so far.....
> >
> > I have WinXP Pro (32 bit verion) Volume license on one of my workstations
> > now and I would like to upgrade to Vista Ultimate x64 version 9retail).
> > Can I do it with the the Vista Ultimate Upgrade package (which has both
> > 32 and 64 bit DVD's) or must I have a 64 bit version of WinXP installed?
>
> You can do it with the 64 bit upgrade edition of Vista.
>
> > I think the answer is that I can't and must buy the full package in order
> > to move to x64. I have some CAD and Photo applications that can benefit
> > from a 64 bit OS running.
>
> Pop in the Vista upgrade DVD for x64 and off you go.
> --
> Tom Porterfield
>

deek wrote:
> Tom, can you do a clean install of Vista64 from the upgrade version? I
> have WinXP32 and don't want an 'upgrade', I'd prefer to do a clean
> install... I'm assuming the term upgrade only means you have to have a
> previous windows OS license to get a new one for less than the retail
> version

Yes you can. The basic process would be to boot with the Vista64 upgrade
disk, enter your upgrade PK, let it find XP on the hard drive, and then
proceed to the disk configuration portion of the install where you could
format the existing partition that contains XP and lay your Vista 64 there.
--
Tom Porterfield