Vista - Same old Windows... some things broken in XP and earlier STILL broke.

With each new version of Windows you hope old problems get fixed. No
such luck for many things. Consider the following case study regarding
one of Microsoft so-called "partners"; Roxio.

On Februrary 21st, Microsoft released a list of 800 "certified"
applications that were "throughly tested". Roxio didn't make the list
for certified or even the lessor list of applications that have
"earned" the Microsoft "works with Vista" logo. Neither has Adobe, but
that's another story. In fact there is a virtual who's who of big
software developers that haven't made the "approved" Vista list.

The box Roxio's Easy Media Creator 9 Suite comes in does proudly
display a "compatiable with Vista" sticker. I guess causing a
inescapable application hang is considered "compatiable", after all
Windows frequently did this in older versions for just about every
application that hangs. This really isn't about stickers or marketing
hype, rather things Microsoft seems unable to fix; applications
hanging and refusing to shut them down for example.

I've used Easy Suite 9 for a couple days now, so far I like it and it
seemed stable until today when it decided to hang for no reason. You
know the drill, go to Task Manager and hope Windows with force a shut
down of whatever application is hanging. That's suppose to be a
"feature". I try. Windows brings up the dialog box telling you what
you already know... "The application is not responding. The program
may respond again if you wait. Do you want to end this process?" Well
duh, yes, I want to end the process and so I click the end process
button. Nothing happens. I shouldn't say nothing, because as before in
earlier versions of Windows the Task Manager window show more and more
CPU useage. It climbs and climbs and now it is in 70% range where
before while the appliction was hung and I left it hang, the CPU
useage was just 5%. So obviously Windows, not the hung application is
eating up CPU cycles like crazy. It always does when you ask it do to
something it doesn't seem to know how to do. Five minutes later,
application is still hung. Can't shut it down and Windows keeps
pouring more resources into trying.

Here we go again. I'm rendering a video. That takes time. LOTS of
time. I'm ALWAYS rendering a video, that's what I do! Already invested
5 hours into this project. I can't see because the Roxio window is
hogging most of my desktop. Oh look, something happened. Windows
cleared the Roxio window. I don't mean it closed it or shut the
application down like I asked five minutes ago, no, it literally
painted the Roxio window a solid white. That's better, thanks Vista,
now I cant' even try to drag that window out of the way since brain
dead Vista removed the window's title bar and everything else.

So in five years development time Microsoft figured out how to prevent
you from running you applications with it's UAC permissions madness,
but still hasn't figured out how a OS can really SHUT DOWN a
application that's hung. Too funny for words. Really it is.

Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
shut down any appliation. Right?

Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
Sometimes it works, other times not.

MVP's wonder why customers get pissed at Windows. Duh! So again, for
the fourth time since installing Vista a week ago I had a video
rendering for hours, then run into a problem with another application
and the only way I can proceed is force a hard reboot by hitting the
power button on the PC and again lose the work I was doing and also
risk corupting more files or the hard drive itself. Five years in
development, hundreds of millions invested in "research" and Windows
is still too damn dumb to know how to really "shut down" a hung
application when it ask if it can and you tell it to proceed. Too
funny, really it is. I'm waiting for Apple to make a funny commerical
about this Vista "feature". Tell Windows to shut down a hung
application and just watch at it tries and tries and just can't.

Adam Albright wrote:

> Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
> access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
> should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
> shut down any appliation. Right?
>
> Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
> with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
> Sometimes it works, other times not.

Trouble is with your example problem app here. It's not a traditional
application - to do what it does it has to install drivers and change the
way the operating system works in order to integrate itself into the way
stuff is routed around the system with regard to burning disks.

Same sort of thing as AV software - you can call it an application, but
parts of it alter and extend how the operating system work.

Please note I'm not defending this behaviour. It's a right pain in the hoop
and annoys me too. I'm just offering an explanation as to why some apps seem
to always take the OS with them when they fly south for the winter.

> I'm waiting for Apple to make a funny commerical
> about this Vista "feature". Tell Windows to shut down a hung
> application and just watch at it tries and tries and just can't.

It would be somewhat hypocritical of them to do so as this is a problem on
Apple computers too at times. Having said that, a little bit of hypocracy
hasn't stopped Apple beforehand, so they probably won't let it worry them
now either!

--
Robert Moir
http://www.rhymeswithgeek.com

Robert Moir wrote:
> Adam Albright wrote:
>
>> Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
>> access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
>> should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
>> shut down any appliation. Right?
>>
>> Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
>> with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
>> Sometimes it works, other times not.
>
> Trouble is with your example problem app here. It's not a traditional
> application - to do what it does it has to install drivers and change the
> way the operating system works in order to integrate itself into the way
> stuff is routed around the system with regard to burning disks.

>
I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end
task and wait, and wait, and wait and......

Mossie wrote:
>>
> I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
> pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
> can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end
> task and wait, and wait, and wait and......

I've had it happen on XP with Outlook a lot but then I use ActiveSync
(drivers again!) and this is about as stable as a drunk juggler on a
unicycle with a flat tyre.

Firefox has been quite well behaved for me. Not that it hasn't shot itself a
few times in use, it wouldn't be software if it was perfect but it hasn't
taken anything else out with it.

For me the biggest problem with Vista has been basic stability and
performance issues in things like Explorer. I wonder if issues here could
undermine apps?

Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree". I
have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end process"
button doesn't work.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!



"Mossie" <mo55ie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:umFxhVAWHHA.896@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Robert Moir wrote:
>> Adam Albright wrote:
>>
>>> Remember, a OS controls or is suppose to... what applications get
>>> access to; your CPU, hard drive, memory, etc.. So any OS, even Windows
>>> should, with no trouble, any time, when you tell it to, be able to
>>> shut down any appliation. Right?
>>>
>>> Wrong. Not Vista. Not XP, Windows could never manage this simple task
>>> with any degree of confidence. It always has been a crap shoot.
>>> Sometimes it works, other times not.
>>
>> Trouble is with your example problem app here. It's not a traditional
>> application - to do what it does it has to install drivers and change the
>> way the operating system works in order to integrate itself into the way
>> stuff is routed around the system with regard to burning disks.
>
>>
> I've had this happen with Firefox, Thunderbird and even Outlook, all
> pretty traditional apps. The App hangs, I open the task manager (If I
> can, sometimes it's not possible) select the offending app, click end task
> and wait, and wait, and wait and......

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uR3mWcBWHHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree".
> I have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end
> process" button doesn't work.

I have... especially if the process had anything to do with a little
company named Symantec.
Roxio, IMHO is a close 2nd to them, if for no other reason, than the shear
amount of crapola that gets added to your system.
Last time I tried a Roxio app, I ended up restoring from a backup, it hosed
my system that bad.

Sometime when you have an afternoon to kill, search your registry for
"Roxio".
bring a lunch.

Ever hear of "custom install". Put on only that which YOU choose to be
installed.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!



"johnm" <johnm@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%23W8$1oBWHHA.5068@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:uR3mWcBWHHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree".
>> I have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end
>> process" button doesn't work.
>
> I have... especially if the process had anything to do with a little
> company named Symantec.
> Roxio, IMHO is a close 2nd to them, if for no other reason, than the shear
> amount of crapola that gets added to your system.
> Last time I tried a Roxio app, I ended up restoring from a backup, it
> hosed my system that bad.
>
> Sometime when you have an afternoon to kill, search your registry for
> "Roxio".
> bring a lunch.
>

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eiK%23YrBWHHA.4624@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Ever hear of "custom install". Put on only that which YOU choose to be
> installed.
>
> --
>
>
> Regards,


lol, you're so precious...

I install about 1/3rd of what a standard install would entail. If you have
no intention of ever using the complete package - why install the complete
package.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!



"johnm" <johnm@msn.com> wrote in message
news:uJkEFKCWHHA.4720@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eiK%23YrBWHHA.4624@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Ever hear of "custom install". Put on only that which YOU choose to be
>> installed.
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>
>
> lol, you're so precious...
>
>
>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 08:46:33 -0500, "johnm" <johnm@msn.com> wrote:

>
>"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:uR3mWcBWHHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Right click on the process in task manager and choose "end process tree".
>> I have never had this fail to end a process - when pressing the "end
>> process" button doesn't work.
>
>I have... especially if the process had anything to do with a little
>company named Symantec.
>Roxio, IMHO is a close 2nd to them, if for no other reason, than the shear
>amount of crapola that gets added to your system.
>Last time I tried a Roxio app, I ended up restoring from a backup, it hosed
>my system that bad.
>
>Sometime when you have an afternoon to kill, search your registry for
>"Roxio".
>bring a lunch.

I sure have too. Of course I tried to stop by also clicking on the end
process tree option. Vista just stuck its tongue out at me and did
nothing.

Having read a couple dozen posts from Urban he seems very
inexpereinced, but none the less has the typical MVP arrogance.