After takin' a swig o' grog, Rich belched out this bit o' wisdom:

>> Dude, get real. When you've seen half of what I've seen, I may bite
>
> there's that IRONY again, don't just love it
>
> you're expertise isn't impressing anyone. When experience leads to nonsese,
> get better experience or a better scientific method.



It would help if you could articulate your position.

--
"No! There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
significant number of users want fixed." -- Bill Gates, FOCUS interview
http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html

No business with more than a few machines would risk upgrading to a new OS
without that product having been thoroughly tested. It is simply too
expensive to upgrade the hardware, train the IT department AND determine
impact with existing propietary software used for payroll, work control,
plant monitoring, etc.

It has nothing to do with Vista's faults. It's simply not mature software
and as such a poor business decision at this point to upgrade.

Most companies I deal with haven't even upgraded to XP. Win 2000 is simply
too well ingrained and until Microsoft stops supporting Win 2000, it is not
likely that companies (or government) will make the switch. Why would they?

They don't need a new OS. All their software and equipment currently works.
They don't make money by switching OS's everytime they change.


"NoStop" wrote:

> An important read ...
>
> "Upgrading to Windows Vista has been banned by the U.S. Department of
> Transportation (DOT), the National Institute of Standards and Technology
> (NIST), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), technology giant Texas
> Instruments and other corporations and government agencies (V1, V10, V11).
> These organizations are evaluating their options, but overseas it's turning
> into a stampede to get out of Microsoft software (V15)."
>
> "It's becoming clear people are going to be holding on to their XP machines
> as long as they can. Chip manufacturers in particular face a damaging glut
> of memory and CPU chips because the anticipated Vista upgrade demand isn't
> materializing."
>
> "What went wrong? Basically, Vista was designed with almost no consideration
> for the needs of Microsoft's customers. James Allchin, co-president of
> Microsoft's Platform Products and Services Group wrote an internal memo
> saying that Microsoft had lost touch with customer needs and if he didn't
> work there he'd buy an Apple Macintosh (V12). Allchin retired the day Vista
> shipped."
>
> Full article here ...
>
> http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> The "Wow" starts now.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&eurl=
>
> Windows is not a virus! Viruses are small, efficient and built to get a job
> done. Windows on the other hand ...
>
>

(((I))) Did not say the same things about XP. XP was and is very good....
Vista is HORRID.... the OP is exactly what I have been saying all along for
MONTHS now...

but all you vistaboy naysayers kept calling me a troll instead of
listening...

I also foresaw that after vistas release the IT specialists will smack it
down
like the trash it is... and its happening...

Vista is a sour joke

"Shane Nokes" <Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message
news:efxgQH3aHHA.2448@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>I hope you do realize that they said the same thing about XP.
>
> It's not against Vista per se, it's just how the gov deals with things.
>
> They'll roll out Vista in late '08 or early '09 just watch, that's what
> they always do.
>
>
> "NoStop" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:1174443657.93323@netadmin1.interbaun.net...
>> An important read ...
>>
>> "Upgrading to Windows Vista has been banned by the U.S. Department of
>> Transportation (DOT), the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>> (NIST), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), technology giant Texas
>> Instruments and other corporations and government agencies (V1, V10,
>> V11).
>> These organizations are evaluating their options, but overseas it's
>> turning
>> into a stampede to get out of Microsoft software (V15)."
>>
>> "It's becoming clear people are going to be holding on to their XP
>> machines
>> as long as they can. Chip manufacturers in particular face a damaging
>> glut
>> of memory and CPU chips because the anticipated Vista upgrade demand
>> isn't
>> materializing."
>>
>> "What went wrong? Basically, Vista was designed with almost no
>> consideration
>> for the needs of Microsoft's customers. James Allchin, co-president of
>> Microsoft's Platform Products and Services Group wrote an internal memo
>> saying that Microsoft had lost touch with customer needs and if he didn't
>> work there he'd buy an Apple Macintosh (V12). Allchin retired the day
>> Vista
>> shipped."
>>
>> Full article here ...
>>
>> http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> --
>> The "Wow" starts now.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&eurl=
>>
>> Windows is not a virus! Viruses are small, efficient and built to get a
>> job
>> done. Windows on the other hand ...
>>

mhonzell wrote:

> No business with more than a few machines would risk upgrading to a new OS
> without that product having been thoroughly tested. It is simply too
> expensive to upgrade the hardware, train the IT department AND determine
> impact with existing propietary software used for payroll, work control,
> plant monitoring, etc.
>
> It has nothing to do with Vista's faults. It's simply not mature software
> and as such a poor business decision at this point to upgrade.
>
> Most companies I deal with haven't even upgraded to XP. Win 2000 is simply
> too well ingrained and until Microsoft stops supporting Win 2000, it is
> not likely that companies (or government) will make the switch. Why would
> they?
>
> They don't need a new OS. All their software and equipment currently
> works. They don't make money by switching OS's everytime they change.

I think you really hit the key word here in how you put that.

Switching from one version of windows to another is no longer upgrading the
OS such as it generally used to be the case. Now it is changing the OS.
Just a different choice in words? I don't think so.

When you upgrade something to a new version, an upgrade generally means that
it will still work with its existing data.

But when you change to something different...now at that point in time, all
bets are off.

That's basically a major problem I am seeing. Vista is not being treated as
an upgrade, it is a "new operating system" just with a similar name.

So basically isn't that much terribly different from switching to any other
OS. The user essentially faces many of the same problems just in a
different way.

And the thing is, the people affected the worst buy stuff like this is
actually not the home user using run of the mill standard apps that are
available like sand on the beach. Those developers will always have their
apps available in whatever flavor OS is most popular.

What's, in my opinion, affected the worst is the commercial and industrial
market that is by far more likely to run their own custom proprietary
software to meet their needs. One could argue that they can just keep using
Win2000 or whatever as has been said above.

But can they really? For a while, sure. Eventually though, PCs break. It
happens sooner or later requiring replacement of that PC. Well wait a
second, now they have an OS that is potentially no longer compatible with
new hardware due to its age. On the the other hand they also have their own
software they need to make their living that doesn't work with the new
operating system.

I think that right there MS is annihilating their commercial and industrial
markets with their compatibility problems. Their attempts to force people
to switch to Vista is just going to lead to those whom Vista isn't suitable
for to switch to other alternatives. Once that happens it's unlikely they
will ever switch back.

I personally am in that very situation planning on putting up a server
cluster later on this year.

Can I run Win2003 Server? As far as I am concerned, no. With the upcoming
release of longhorn to replace it, 2003 Server is essentially on its way to
its deathbed. I can't warrant putting up new servers with an OS I know will
only be obsoleted in the near future.

Is longhorn a suitable replacement? If they have even a remote hint of WGA,
Activation and all the anti-piracy crap of Vista in the server version then
it already ruled itself out. I can't warrant putting up servers that are
liable to built-in DoS whenever they randomly feel like it with flaky WGA.
I don't know how it will be...but nor do I intend to find out the hard way.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

������出�日�ん�����
����忘れ�������ら

"Stephan Rose" <kermos@nospam.somrek.net> wrote in message
news:8YKdnY_EvrhrspzbnZ2dnUVZ8qSnnZ2d@giganews.com...
> mhonzell wrote:
>
>> No business with more than a few machines would risk upgrading to a new
>> OS
>> without that product having been thoroughly tested. It is simply too
>> expensive to upgrade the hardware, train the IT department AND determine
>> impact with existing propietary software used for payroll, work control,
>> plant monitoring, etc.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with Vista's faults. It's simply not mature software
>> and as such a poor business decision at this point to upgrade.
>>
>> Most companies I deal with haven't even upgraded to XP. Win 2000 is
>> simply
>> too well ingrained and until Microsoft stops supporting Win 2000, it is
>> not likely that companies (or government) will make the switch. Why would
>> they?
>>
>> They don't need a new OS. All their software and equipment currently
>> works. They don't make money by switching OS's everytime they change.
>
> I think you really hit the key word here in how you put that.
>
> Switching from one version of windows to another is no longer upgrading
> the
> OS such as it generally used to be the case. Now it is changing the OS.
> Just a different choice in words? I don't think so.
>
> When you upgrade something to a new version, an upgrade generally means
> that
> it will still work with its existing data.
>
> But when you change to something different...now at that point in time,
> all
> bets are off.
>
> That's basically a major problem I am seeing. Vista is not being treated
> as
> an upgrade, it is a "new operating system" just with a similar name.
>
> So basically isn't that much terribly different from switching to any
> other
> OS. The user essentially faces many of the same problems just in a
> different way.
>
> And the thing is, the people affected the worst buy stuff like this is
> actually not the home user using run of the mill standard apps that are
> available like sand on the beach. Those developers will always have their
> apps available in whatever flavor OS is most popular.
>
> What's, in my opinion, affected the worst is the commercial and industrial
> market that is by far more likely to run their own custom proprietary
> software to meet their needs. One could argue that they can just keep
> using
> Win2000 or whatever as has been said above.
>
> But can they really? For a while, sure. Eventually though, PCs break. It
> happens sooner or later requiring replacement of that PC. Well wait a
> second, now they have an OS that is potentially no longer compatible with
> new hardware due to its age. On the the other hand they also have their
> own
> software they need to make their living that doesn't work with the new
> operating system.
>
> I think that right there MS is annihilating their commercial and
> industrial
> markets with their compatibility problems. Their attempts to force people
> to switch to Vista is just going to lead to those whom Vista isn't
> suitable
> for to switch to other alternatives. Once that happens it's unlikely they
> will ever switch back.
>
> I personally am in that very situation planning on putting up a server
> cluster later on this year.
>
> Can I run Win2003 Server? As far as I am concerned, no. With the upcoming
> release of longhorn to replace it, 2003 Server is essentially on its way
> to
> its deathbed. I can't warrant putting up new servers with an OS I know
> will
> only be obsoleted in the near future.
>
> Is longhorn a suitable replacement? If they have even a remote hint of
> WGA,
> Activation and all the anti-piracy crap of Vista in the server version
> then
> it already ruled itself out. I can't warrant putting up servers that are
> liable to built-in DoS whenever they randomly feel like it with flaky WGA.
> I don't know how it will be...but nor do I intend to find out the hard
> way.
>
> --
> Stephan
> 2003 Yamaha R6


Of all the comments in this thread I think you hit the major nails right on
their heads.

Most "Industry" either has fairly "Standard" needs (Database, Spreadsheet,
Accounting, Payroll) because of the generally accepted business practices
and the relevant legislation. Others may need bespoke software, but even
there a lot can be done using higher level languages that improves
application portability. The more the languages grow together the more
portable bespoke applications should become.

To give you an example of what you expressed concerns about I had written
some software that I wanted to use at work, but being a pretty poor
programmer I needed to test that my creation (Written at home on XP) would
also work on 2003. I set up an old machine at work roughly the same as the
company server with W2003 and installed VS2005 to do the testing. It worked
and so I figured I might do more in the future. Recently there was a service
pack for VS2005 so I tried installing that but the install went belly up so
I decided I may have broken something and tried to uninstall VS2005 and
start over... That too went belly up so I figured I'd reboot an try again. I
removed the CD, rebooted and up pops "Since Windows was first installed the
hardware has changed significantly". Of course from that point on you have 3
days to re-activate so I had nothing to lose by messing about with the
thing, it's not like it was an important machine, but the important thing
here is that the hardware had not changed one iota except for maybe
inserting and later removing a DVD in the player. Once that message appears
by the way it doesn't matter if you put the original hardware back, the
system is considered "Stolen" until you prove otherwise. Of course in this
case I couldn't put anything back, it had never changed.

As it happens I have a nearly identical machine at home so just for the hell
of it I installed a copy of W2003 on that, did the updates etc and then
cloned the drive, I then took the copied drive to work and swapped it for
the other one in the test machine. No complaints at all

Seems obvious to me that some sort of software error caused the problem, it
certainly was not triggered by hardware changes, in fact all the darned
machine had done for 3 months was sit on the desk accepting updates, but is
that weird or what? I should add that I have an MSDN license for these
systems so I had no fear of losing out, they were being tested in the manner
the MSDN license seems to indicate that it's intended for, but were I
responsible for IT management it would sure make me think twice about
Linux - I hope that MS can make some rapid progress in reducing this kind of
problem dramatically.

Charlie

Yes and you matter about as much as the **** I just took in the bathroom and
flushed.

If you read my comment in context to the original post you'll realize that I
was talking about the government agencies you mentally deficient midget
wonder.

When XP came out almost all government agencies banned a move to it until at
least SP1 came out & and some until SP2 came out.

Once again showing your lack of knowledge.

I used to work for the Washington State Dept of Labor & Industries so I know
the procedures when it comes to tech roll-outs.

Once again dazzle us with your ineffectual attempts to show brilliance.


Ya know kirk jim, I'd almost like you if you tried to at least argue valid
points instead of exaggerating or making things up


"kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
news:uHpEAZ7aHHA.596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> (((I))) Did not say the same things about XP. XP was and is very good....
> Vista is HORRID.... the OP is exactly what I have been saying all along
> for
> MONTHS now...
>
> but all you vistaboy naysayers kept calling me a troll instead of
> listening...
>
> I also foresaw that after vistas release the IT specialists will smack it
> down
> like the trash it is... and its happening...
>
> Vista is a sour joke
>
> "Shane Nokes" <Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:efxgQH3aHHA.2448@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>I hope you do realize that they said the same thing about XP.
>>
>> It's not against Vista per se, it's just how the gov deals with things.
>>
>> They'll roll out Vista in late '08 or early '09 just watch, that's what
>> they always do.
>>
>>
>> "NoStop" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:1174443657.93323@netadmin1.interbaun.net...
>>> An important read ...
>>>
>>> "Upgrading to Windows Vista has been banned by the U.S. Department of
>>> Transportation (DOT), the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>>> (NIST), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), technology giant
>>> Texas
>>> Instruments and other corporations and government agencies (V1, V10,
>>> V11).
>>> These organizations are evaluating their options, but overseas it's
>>> turning
>>> into a stampede to get out of Microsoft software (V15)."
>>>
>>> "It's becoming clear people are going to be holding on to their XP
>>> machines
>>> as long as they can. Chip manufacturers in particular face a damaging
>>> glut
>>> of memory and CPU chips because the anticipated Vista upgrade demand
>>> isn't
>>> materializing."
>>>
>>> "What went wrong? Basically, Vista was designed with almost no
>>> consideration
>>> for the needs of Microsoft's customers. James Allchin, co-president of
>>> Microsoft's Platform Products and Services Group wrote an internal memo
>>> saying that Microsoft had lost touch with customer needs and if he
>>> didn't
>>> work there he'd buy an Apple Macintosh (V12). Allchin retired the day
>>> Vista
>>> shipped."
>>>
>>> Full article here ...
>>>
>>> http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> The "Wow" starts now.
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&eurl=
>>>
>>> Windows is not a virus! Viruses are small, efficient and built to get a
>>> job
>>> done. Windows on the other hand ...
>>>
>
>

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:10:22 -0700, "Shane Nokes"
<Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote:

>Yes and you matter about as much as the **** I just took in the bathroom and
>flushed.

You're one of the **** for brains smart ass little flunkies Microsoft
now users for beta testers. Fancy that. It does explain why Vista got
released as buggy as it is. <snicker>

Also an apology for kirk jim/jim kirk.

I was more than slightly pissed when I posted that last bit.

I'm just getting tired of watching people post things that are just useless
for the most part.


I know you and Adam could post good points if you tried, but you guys keep
either making things up or exaggerating.

I'd like to see some actually debatable posts that aren't full of bogus
content, that's all.


"kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
news:uHpEAZ7aHHA.596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> (((I))) Did not say the same things about XP. XP was and is very good....
> Vista is HORRID.... the OP is exactly what I have been saying all along
> for
> MONTHS now...
>
> but all you vistaboy naysayers kept calling me a troll instead of
> listening...
>
> I also foresaw that after vistas release the IT specialists will smack it
> down
> like the trash it is... and its happening...
>
> Vista is a sour joke
>
> "Shane Nokes" <Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:efxgQH3aHHA.2448@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>I hope you do realize that they said the same thing about XP.
>>
>> It's not against Vista per se, it's just how the gov deals with things.
>>
>> They'll roll out Vista in late '08 or early '09 just watch, that's what
>> they always do.
>>
>>
>> "NoStop" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:1174443657.93323@netadmin1.interbaun.net...
>>> An important read ...
>>>
>>> "Upgrading to Windows Vista has been banned by the U.S. Department of
>>> Transportation (DOT), the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>>> (NIST), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), technology giant
>>> Texas
>>> Instruments and other corporations and government agencies (V1, V10,
>>> V11).
>>> These organizations are evaluating their options, but overseas it's
>>> turning
>>> into a stampede to get out of Microsoft software (V15)."
>>>
>>> "It's becoming clear people are going to be holding on to their XP
>>> machines
>>> as long as they can. Chip manufacturers in particular face a damaging
>>> glut
>>> of memory and CPU chips because the anticipated Vista upgrade demand
>>> isn't
>>> materializing."
>>>
>>> "What went wrong? Basically, Vista was designed with almost no
>>> consideration
>>> for the needs of Microsoft's customers. James Allchin, co-president of
>>> Microsoft's Platform Products and Services Group wrote an internal memo
>>> saying that Microsoft had lost touch with customer needs and if he
>>> didn't
>>> work there he'd buy an Apple Macintosh (V12). Allchin retired the day
>>> Vista
>>> shipped."
>>>
>>> Full article here ...
>>>
>>> http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> The "Wow" starts now.
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&eurl=
>>>
>>> Windows is not a virus! Viruses are small, efficient and built to get a
>>> job
>>> done. Windows on the other hand ...
>>>
>
>

Since you showed a bit of humbleness, I will take the time to
express some regret in the name calling I did against you.
I apologize.

Now, if you didn't go around here spouting off like you think
you know everything, and throwing around your credentials
seeming to portray yourself as vastly more intelligent, special,
and superior than other users in this forum- I wouldn't have a
problem with you. You may have credentials, you may do the
things you say, and you do seem smart... that doesn't make you
right. Also, if you are right, it's no excuse to be an arrogant about it.
Even Bush went to Yale and Harvard, and well, I'm not impressed.

Have a pleasant day.

Take care,

Michael

"Shane Nokes" <Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message
news:eSc9i4FcHHA.1296@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Also an apology for kirk jim/jim kirk.
>
> I was more than slightly pissed when I posted that last bit.
>
> I'm just getting tired of watching people post things that are just useless for the most
> part.
>
>
> I know you and Adam could post good points if you tried, but you guys keep either making
> things up or exaggerating.
>
> I'd like to see some actually debatable posts that aren't full of bogus content, that's all.
>
>
> "kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message news:uHpEAZ7aHHA.596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> (((I))) Did not say the same things about XP. XP was and is very good....
>> Vista is HORRID.... the OP is exactly what I have been saying all along for
>> MONTHS now...
>>
>> but all you vistaboy naysayers kept calling me a troll instead of
>> listening...
>>
>> I also foresaw that after vistas release the IT specialists will smack it
>> down
>> like the trash it is... and its happening...
>>
>> Vista is a sour joke
>>
>> "Shane Nokes" <Morpheus_Phreak@nospam.msn.com> wrote in message
>> news:efxgQH3aHHA.2448@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>>>I hope you do realize that they said the same thing about XP.
>>>
>>> It's not against Vista per se, it's just how the gov deals with things.
>>>
>>> They'll roll out Vista in late '08 or early '09 just watch, that's what they always do.
>>>
>>>
>>> "NoStop" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1174443657.93323@netadmin1.interbaun.net...
>>>> An important read ...
>>>>
>>>> "Upgrading to Windows Vista has been banned by the U.S. Department of
>>>> Transportation (DOT), the National Institute of Standards and Technology
>>>> (NIST), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), technology giant Texas
>>>> Instruments and other corporations and government agencies (V1, V10, V11).
>>>> These organizations are evaluating their options, but overseas it's turning
>>>> into a stampede to get out of Microsoft software (V15)."
>>>>
>>>> "It's becoming clear people are going to be holding on to their XP machines
>>>> as long as they can. Chip manufacturers in particular face a damaging glut
>>>> of memory and CPU chips because the anticipated Vista upgrade demand isn't
>>>> materializing."
>>>>
>>>> "What went wrong? Basically, Vista was designed with almost no consideration
>>>> for the needs of Microsoft's customers. James Allchin, co-president of
>>>> Microsoft's Platform Products and Services Group wrote an internal memo
>>>> saying that Microsoft had lost touch with customer needs and if he didn't
>>>> work there he'd buy an Apple Macintosh (V12). Allchin retired the day Vista
>>>> shipped."
>>>>
>>>> Full article here ...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html
>>>>
>>>> Cheers.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> The "Wow" starts now.
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc&eurl=
>>>>
>>>> Windows is not a virus! Viruses are small, efficient and built to get a job
>>>> done. Windows on the other hand ...
>>>>
>>
>>

"kirk jim" <11@11.11> wrote in message
news:uHpEAZ7aHHA.596@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> (((I))) Did not say the same things about XP. XP was and is very good....
> Vista is HORRID.... the OP is exactly what I have been saying all along
> for
> MONTHS now...

I'm interested. Since you claim you LOVE XP and you where not an XP basher
then what's you opinion of people that claimed all the same things about XP
even LONG after it release as you claim about Vista?

XP is a sour joke! Proclaimed by many.

XP is horrid!

This is why people bundle you with the same ignorance from oh so long ago.