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| | #21 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question You confuse statistics with risk, the 2 are related but different fields. If you have a dollar to invest, and it is your only dollar, the risk is high. If you have a dollar to invest, yet are a millionaire, there is virtually no risk. Statistically the invested dollar is the same. "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message news:fmm4b3lgu3pkqb6dq1t8s8migp0lvsdu3c@4ax.com... > On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:20:14 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: > >> What proof do you have that RAID0 fails more often than a single HD? >> Unless >> you have hard data, its an opinion, not a fact, you mook. > > > > LOL! Sure, resort to name-calling. That's a great way to prove you're > right. > > Look at any elementary book on probability or statistics. > > > > >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >> news:crl2b3patt4lmsqoc8tiiih57ffg2nggn9@4ax.com... >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:20:52 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >> > >> >> I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >> > >> > >> > When you make a public statement here that is not correct, regardless >> > of who you asked or whether you asked anybody, *expect* to be >> > corrected. >> > >> > >> > >> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >> >> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>> >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially >> >> >> with >> >> >> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >> >> >> without >> >> >> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have >> >> > more >> >> > than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than >> >> > the >> >> > chances of a single drive failing. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup >> > >> > -- >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > > -- > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User > Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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| | #22 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:20:25 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: > You confuse statistics with risk, the 2 are related but different fields. > If you have a dollar to invest, and it is your only dollar, the risk is > high. > If you have a dollar to invest, yet are a millionaire, there is virtually no > risk. > Statistically the invested dollar is the same. You may believe whatever you want. I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue with you. > "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message > news:fmm4b3lgu3pkqb6dq1t8s8migp0lvsdu3c@4ax.com... > > On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:20:14 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: > > > >> What proof do you have that RAID0 fails more often than a single HD? > >> Unless > >> you have hard data, its an opinion, not a fact, you mook. > > > > > > > > LOL! Sure, resort to name-calling. That's a great way to prove you're > > right. > > > > Look at any elementary book on probability or statistics. > > > > > > > > > >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message > >> news:crl2b3patt4lmsqoc8tiiih57ffg2nggn9@4ax.com... > >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:20:52 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: > >> > > >> >> I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. > >> > > >> > > >> > When you make a public statement here that is not correct, regardless > >> > of who you asked or whether you asked anybody, *expect* to be > >> > corrected. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message > >> >> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...> >> >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially > >> >> >> with > >> >> >> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or > >> >> >> without > >> >> >> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have > >> >> > more > >> >> > than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than > >> >> > the > >> >> > chances of a single drive failing. > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User > >> >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User > >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > > > > -- > > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User > > Please Reply to the Newsgroup -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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| | #23 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question Maybe you need a book on risk assessment. "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message news:kfq4b3pj8im27aofag5b42qlv0d655vlnq@4ax.com... > On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:20:25 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: > >> You confuse statistics with risk, the 2 are related but different fields. >> If you have a dollar to invest, and it is your only dollar, the risk is >> high. >> If you have a dollar to invest, yet are a millionaire, there is virtually >> no >> risk. >> Statistically the invested dollar is the same. > > > You may believe whatever you want. I have neither the time nor the > inclination to argue with you. > > > > >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >> news:fmm4b3lgu3pkqb6dq1t8s8migp0lvsdu3c@4ax.com... >> > On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:20:14 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >> > >> >> What proof do you have that RAID0 fails more often than a single HD? >> >> Unless >> >> you have hard data, its an opinion, not a fact, you mook. >> > >> > >> > >> > LOL! Sure, resort to name-calling. That's a great way to prove you're >> > right. >> > >> > Look at any elementary book on probability or statistics. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >> >> news:crl2b3patt4lmsqoc8tiiih57ffg2nggn9@4ax.com... >> >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:20:52 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > When you make a public statement here that is not correct, >> >> > regardless >> >> > of who you asked or whether you asked anybody, *expect* to be >> >> > corrected. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in >> >> >> message >> >> >> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>> >> >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a >> >> >> >> difference...especially >> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >> >> >> >> without >> >> >> >> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have >> >> >> > more >> >> >> > than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater >> >> >> > than >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > chances of a single drive failing. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> >> >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup >> > >> > -- >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup > > -- > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User > Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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| | #24 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question My opinion is a fact. The OS residing on 2 HD's is of no greater "risk" than on a single HD. In either situation, the failure of a single HD would cause failure. MVP must mean "I read it somewhere, and as I cant think for myself, that makes it a fact." "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message news:946EAB5E-AF35-4591-BC80-04D2126A3B01@microsoft.com... > You stated an opinion as fact. The opinion was wrong. > > -- > Kerry Brown > Microsoft MVP - Shell/User > http://www.vistahelp.ca > > > "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message > news:eLNmfNK1HHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >>I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>>> On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially >>>> with >>>> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >>>> without >>>> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >>> >>> >>> That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have more >>> than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than the >>> chances of a single drive failing. >>> >>> -- >>> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>> Please Reply to the Newsgroup >> > |
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| | #25 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question You don't obviously don't understand statistics. With two drives there is greater chance of one of them failing than with a single drive. With any RAID array the MTBF equals the MTBF of a single drive divided by the number of drives. This means in a two drive RAID 0 your MTBF is halved. Any one who works with RAID on a regular basis will tell that the formula is true. That's why in real RAID with redundancy a lot of people use hot spares. This only takes into account drive failure and not bad sectors. In a striped array if you get one bad sector the controller may mark the drive as unusable and there goes your array. With redundancy this isn't a problem. You test the drive and possibly put it back into service because the array continued working with a failed dive. With most RAID controllers built onto motherboards if you are using RAID 0 and get a bad sector on one drive you usually loose the whole array for good. -- Kerry Brown Microsoft MVP - Shell/User http://www.vistahelp.ca "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message news:%23v1AUwW1HHA.4184@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > My opinion is a fact. The OS residing on 2 HD's is of no greater "risk" > than on a single HD. In either situation, the failure of a single HD would > cause failure. MVP must mean "I read it somewhere, and as I cant think for > myself, that makes it a fact." > > "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message > news:946EAB5E-AF35-4591-BC80-04D2126A3B01@microsoft.com... >> You stated an opinion as fact. The opinion was wrong. >> >> -- >> Kerry Brown >> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User >> http://www.vistahelp.ca >> >> >> "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message >> news:eLNmfNK1HHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >>>I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >>> >>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >>> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>>>> On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially >>>>> with >>>>> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >>>>> without >>>>> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >>>> >>>> >>>> That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have more >>>> than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than the >>>> chances of a single drive failing. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>>> Please Reply to the Newsgroup >>> >> > |
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| | #26 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question If you have two cars you have a greater chance that at any given time one of them will break down than if you just had one car. Fortunately cars are independent of one another and you can still use the car that is working. In a RAID 0 array the drives are not independent. If one breaks down you lose the data on both. You need a basic understanding of statistics and probability to continue this argument. -- Kerry Brown Microsoft MVP - Shell/User http://www.vistahelp.ca "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message news:%23Oy9seV1HHA.5992@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl... > If you buy a 2nd car, does it increase the chance the first car will break > down? Of course not. You may have 2 HD in RAID, but millions are made. 2 > HD doesn't "double" the risk. If their is any increased risk, it is > miniscule. And with regular backups, there is 0 risk. The same risk is > present with a single HD. I wasnt name calling, mook is a funny word > > "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message > news:fmm4b3lgu3pkqb6dq1t8s8migp0lvsdu3c@4ax.com... >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 18:20:14 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >> >>> What proof do you have that RAID0 fails more often than a single HD? >>> Unless >>> you have hard data, its an opinion, not a fact, you mook. >> >> >> >> LOL! Sure, resort to name-calling. That's a great way to prove you're >> right. >> >> Look at any elementary book on probability or statistics. >> >> >> >> >>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >>> news:crl2b3patt4lmsqoc8tiiih57ffg2nggn9@4ax.com... >>> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:20:52 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >>> > >>> >> I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >>> > >>> > >>> > When you make a public statement here that is not correct, regardless >>> > of who you asked or whether you asked anybody, *expect* to be >>> > corrected. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >>> >> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>>> >> > On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> >>> >> > wrote: >>> >> > >>> >> >> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a >>> >> >> difference...especially >>> >> >> with >>> >> >> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >>> >> >> without >>> >> >> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have >>> >> > more >>> >> > than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than >>> >> > the >>> >> > chances of a single drive failing. >>> >> > >>> >> > -- >>> >> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>> >> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>> > Please Reply to the Newsgroup >> >> -- >> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >> Please Reply to the Newsgroup > |
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| | #27 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question You don't understand the word RISK. If you have 2 than thats twice as much as one. But it doesn't make it any riskier...as in either system, the failure of one drive will result in the loss of data. I have 2 hard drives, and the failure rate is 3/1000/year. the probability that my system will fail is 3 in a 1000. You have 1 hard drive, and the failure rate is 3/1000/year, the probability that your system will fail is 3 in a 1000. My system probability of failure would be 6 in a 1000 only if you factor in "concurrent" failure of both drives. I understand statistics, I was a statistical process engineer for 8 years. You should learn to read, write....the double negative in your opening remark isn't proper grammar, nor does it make any sense. "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message news:B5D19900-2796-436B-87AE-FBB05BD0A7D8@microsoft.com... > You don't obviously don't understand statistics. With two drives there is > greater chance of one of them failing than with a single drive. With any > RAID array the MTBF equals the MTBF of a single drive divided by the > number of drives. This means in a two drive RAID 0 your MTBF is halved. > Any one who works with RAID on a regular basis will tell that the formula > is true. That's why in real RAID with redundancy a lot of people use hot > spares. This only takes into account drive failure and not bad sectors. In > a striped array if you get one bad sector the controller may mark the > drive as unusable and there goes your array. With redundancy this isn't a > problem. You test the drive and possibly put it back into service because > the array continued working with a failed dive. With most RAID controllers > built onto motherboards if you are using RAID 0 and get a bad sector on > one drive you usually loose the whole array for good. > > -- > Kerry Brown > Microsoft MVP - Shell/User > http://www.vistahelp.ca > > > "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message > news:%23v1AUwW1HHA.4184@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >> My opinion is a fact. The OS residing on 2 HD's is of no greater "risk" >> than on a single HD. In either situation, the failure of a single HD >> would cause failure. MVP must mean "I read it somewhere, and as I cant >> think for myself, that makes it a fact." >> >> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message >> news:946EAB5E-AF35-4591-BC80-04D2126A3B01@microsoft.com... >>> You stated an opinion as fact. The opinion was wrong. >>> >>> -- >>> Kerry Brown >>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User >>> http://www.vistahelp.ca >>> >>> >>> "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message >>> news:eLNmfNK1HHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >>>>I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >>>> >>>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >>>> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>>>>> On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially >>>>>> with >>>>>> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >>>>>> without >>>>>> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have more >>>>> than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than the >>>>> chances of a single drive failing. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>>>> Please Reply to the Newsgroup >>>> >>> >> > |
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| | #28 (permalink) |
| | Re: RAID0 question It was a typing mistake and you're right it didn't make sense. It should have read: "You obviously don't understand statistics". You say you do. It sounds like you've had more education in that field than I have. Given this I don't understand your lack of understanding of a basic concept. According to this article around 3% of drives fail in the first three years of use. http://blogs.zdnet.com/storage/?p=162 This means if you have two drives you have a 6% chance that one of them will fail in the first three years. By your logic if you had 100,000 drives the odds of one of them failing would be the same as the odds of the failure of any given drive out of the 100,000 total. I'm sure the drive manufacturers love your logic but reality shows us otherwise. It's a pretty basic concept. Again, this only takes into account total failure of the drive. The way RAID controllers work they mark a drive unusable after x number of errors. Many things can cause an error, bad RAM, bad PSU, bad data cable, etc.. With single drives the problem causing the errors can be fixed and unless the file system was corrupted nothing is lost. With a RAID controller the controller marks the drive bad and quits using it. With RAID 0 this means you have lost your data. You can't rebuild a RAID 0 array. -- Kerry Brown Microsoft MVP - Shell/User http://www.vistahelp.ca "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message news:%23nSg%23Ff1HHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > You don't understand the word RISK. If you have 2 than thats twice as much > as one. But it doesn't make it any riskier...as in either system, the > failure of one drive will result in the loss of data. > I have 2 hard drives, and the failure rate is 3/1000/year. the probability > that my system will fail is 3 in a 1000. > You have 1 hard drive, and the failure rate is 3/1000/year, the > probability that your system will fail is 3 in a 1000. > My system probability of failure would be 6 in a 1000 only if you factor > in "concurrent" failure of both drives. > I understand statistics, I was a statistical process engineer for 8 years. > You should learn to read, write....the double negative in your opening > remark isn't proper grammar, nor does it make any sense. > > "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message > news:B5D19900-2796-436B-87AE-FBB05BD0A7D8@microsoft.com... >> You don't obviously don't understand statistics. With two drives there is >> greater chance of one of them failing than with a single drive. With any >> RAID array the MTBF equals the MTBF of a single drive divided by the >> number of drives. This means in a two drive RAID 0 your MTBF is halved. >> Any one who works with RAID on a regular basis will tell that the formula >> is true. That's why in real RAID with redundancy a lot of people use hot >> spares. This only takes into account drive failure and not bad sectors. >> In a striped array if you get one bad sector the controller may mark the >> drive as unusable and there goes your array. With redundancy this isn't a >> problem. You test the drive and possibly put it back into service because >> the array continued working with a failed dive. With most RAID >> controllers built onto motherboards if you are using RAID 0 and get a bad >> sector on one drive you usually loose the whole array for good. >> >> -- >> Kerry Brown >> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User >> http://www.vistahelp.ca >> >> >> "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message >> news:%23v1AUwW1HHA.4184@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >>> My opinion is a fact. The OS residing on 2 HD's is of no greater "risk" >>> than on a single HD. In either situation, the failure of a single HD >>> would cause failure. MVP must mean "I read it somewhere, and as I cant >>> think for myself, that makes it a fact." >>> >>> "Kerry Brown" <kerry@kdbNOSPAMsys-tems.c*a*m> wrote in message >>> news:946EAB5E-AF35-4591-BC80-04D2126A3B01@microsoft.com... >>>> You stated an opinion as fact. The opinion was wrong. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kerry Brown >>>> Microsoft MVP - Shell/User >>>> http://www.vistahelp.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> wrote in message >>>> news:eLNmfNK1HHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... >>>>>I didnt ask you, I stated my experience. >>>>> >>>>> "Ken Blake, MVP" <kblake@this.is.am.invalid.domain> wrote in message >>>>> news h42b3lb3h1m497g93m5e0f9g368if3j7d@4ax.com...>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 18:33:28 -0400, "Crusher" <crusher@home.now> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey dude, I run vista in RAID 0 and I see a difference...especially >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> games. Its no more risky than having the OS on one disk. With or >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> RAID, if a disk with the OS on it fails, ur screwed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That is *not* correct. It's considerably more risky. If you have more >>>>>> than one drive, the chances of one of them failing is greater than >>>>>> the >>>>>> chances of a single drive failing. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP Windows - Shell/User >>>>>> Please Reply to the Newsgroup >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > |
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