Vista Tutorial - How to Enable Indexing in Vista

Re: How to Enable Indexing in Vista

"Dave Wood [MS]" <davewood@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ux6OAjR2HHA.4672@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> All of the things you describe here can be done with the built-in Vista
> search. If the indexer is not running or if you are searching a
> non-indexed location then search is done without the index, which may be
> slower but will still work.

Doug. Thank you for your response, but the Windows Vista search simply does
not work adequately like it did in Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows 2000,
and Windows XP (after a fix
http://support.microsoft.com/default...B;EN-US;309173 ). Microsoft
should fix this problem post haste so scientists and engineers can use Vista
to find scientific data -- which is what I'm trying to do.

See this article with history of Windows search and how Vista has made
things worse, not better (Vista has brought improvements, but how can they
be appreciated when things that worked now fail?)


File Search in Vista Worse than Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP?
http://www.pcmagvote.com/story.php?t..._2000_and_XP-1

Do you have a solution for scenario #2 in the comments to that article?

Comments from National Instruments:
http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5604#toc6
"While Windows Vista searching capabilities may satisfy general users, they
MAY NOT BE ADEQUATE for engineers and scientists. Windows Vista helps you
quickly locate saved files based on metadata, but you cannot search file
content to identify meaningful information."
"For example, you might have thousands of files containing data from
experiments or tests. To make educated decisions based on that information
stored in those files, you must not only carry out complex searches to find
the files but also identify key information or establish trends within the
files; neither are tasks that Instant Search can accomplish. To find and
interpret data rapidly, you need additional tools, such as the National
Instruments DIAdem DataFinder."

Why won't Microsoft admit that search is a problem in Vista, that search in
Vista is "not adequate" and do something about it, instead of frustrating
scientists and engineers who are trying to search scientific/engineering
data using Vista?

You could make sure to use some of the 200 file types that WDS can index...
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/des...earchtype.mspx

http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/defaul...SearchIFilters

http://www.ifilter.org/


"Celegans" <Celegans@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:uces3Ae3HHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Re: How to Enable Indexing in Vista
>
> "Dave Wood [MS]" <davewood@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:ux6OAjR2HHA.4672@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> All of the things you describe here can be done with the built-in Vista
>> search. If the indexer is not running or if you are searching a
>> non-indexed location then search is done without the index, which may be
>> slower but will still work.
>
> Doug. Thank you for your response, but the Windows Vista search simply
> does not work adequately like it did in Windows 95, Windows 98, and
> Windows 2000, and Windows XP (after a fix
> http://support.microsoft.com/default...B;EN-US;309173 ).
> Microsoft should fix this problem post haste so scientists and engineers
> can use Vista to find scientific data -- which is what I'm trying to do.
>
> See this article with history of Windows search and how Vista has made
> things worse, not better (Vista has brought improvements, but how can they
> be appreciated when things that worked now fail?)
>
>
> File Search in Vista Worse than Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP?
> http://www.pcmagvote.com/story.php?t..._2000_and_XP-1
>
> Do you have a solution for scenario #2 in the comments to that article?
>
> Comments from National Instruments:
> http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5604#toc6
> "While Windows Vista searching capabilities may satisfy general users,
> they MAY NOT BE ADEQUATE for engineers and scientists. Windows Vista
> helps you quickly locate saved files based on metadata, but you cannot
> search file content to identify meaningful information."
> "For example, you might have thousands of files containing data from
> experiments or tests. To make educated decisions based on that information
> stored in those files, you must not only carry out complex searches to
> find the files but also identify key information or establish trends
> within the files; neither are tasks that Instant Search can accomplish. To
> find and interpret data rapidly, you need additional tools, such as the
> National Instruments DIAdem DataFinder."
>
> Why won't Microsoft admit that search is a problem in Vista, that search
> in Vista is "not adequate" and do something about it, instead of
> frustrating scientists and engineers who are trying to search
> scientific/engineering data using Vista?
>
>

"Dave" <dave@beepbeep.com> wrote in message
news:uAaHULe3HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> You could make sure to use some of the 200 file types that WDS can
> index...
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/des...earchtype.mspx
>
> http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/defaul...SearchIFilters
>
> http://www.ifilter.org/
Dave, this is NOT a workable solution.

Scientific instruments often create their own file types and sometimes these
files need to be searched. Sometimes the files were created years ago.
Sometimes the same file types are used by different vendors, so the file
type alone doesn't say what's in a file. Can Microsoft distinguish between
an FCS file that is Fluorescent Correlation Spectroscopy data and an FCS
file that has Flow Cytometry Standard data? Or FCS files that have very
different versions by vendor of Fluorescent Correlation Spectroscopy data?

Give us a way to search in Vista that DOES NOT require indexing. Why is
VISTA taking a feature away that's worked since Windows 95? Searching for a
string and file filter at the same time is so difficult?

How can I get Windows Explorer for Windows 2000 working under Windows
Vista?. Is the capability in Windows Explorer from Windows 2000 too much to
ask for in Vista so we can search scientific data? Just copying the Windows
Explorer from Windows 2000 to Vista doesn't work. Can the registry be hacked
to make it work?

I don't want everything on my machines indexed, but I DO want to be able to
do a guided search from a specified directory. Microsoft's "blind search of
everything" approach is not acceptable. Why isn't Microsoft willing to help
scientists search files without imposing indexing by Microsoft?

So, I'll never be able to search a Linux file system with scientific data
until Microsoft indexes all the Linux files?

I can't believe how much time I've wasted trying to get a workable search in
Vista. I can't believe how much time it took to figure out the search in XP
was flawed and was not looking at all files.

>> Why won't Microsoft admit that search is a problem in Vista, that search
>> in Vista is "not adequate" and do something about it, instead of
>> frustrating scientists and engineers who are trying to search
>> scientific/engineering data using Vista?

Just to be clear my name is Dave {well David}, not Doug and my last name is
Wood, not Woods, and I'm not the same person as the other "Dave" also
posting on this thread. With that cleared up, I have a couple of comments,
but I don't have a perfect solution to what you are asking ...

First off, I guess I should say that I'm an engineer and I use Vista search
everyday. Okay I'm a developer at Microsoft on the Windows Search team, so I
would say that wouldn't I? But there are a number of scenarios where the
indexed Vista search has really made my life easier. Searching my Outlook
mail - I have a few thousand mails in my Inbox and a few hundred thousand
older mails in other folders. Keeping track of all my mail is hard, and
searching this stuff using the older search was unusably slow, but now takes
only a few seconds on Vista. Similarly searching all the docs, messages,
html files etc. in all my project folders in c:\users\dave and
c:\users\public works great for me.

The default search options are a complex compromise between making the
search fast, returning relevant results, being as complete as possible, and
not taking too much system resources. Microsoft aims to provide features
that work out of the box for the majority of users without customization. We
then, in principle, provide advanced options for people to customize the
search behavior if they need to. There are lots of advanced options, but
there are cases like yours where I do worry that we haven't provided enough
control - there is no "search unknown extensions as text" option, as you
say. This feedback has definitely been received by us.

One of the problems with searching ALL file types is that it assumes all
files are text-based, which an awful lot of files types are not. And even if
they are text-based the chances that they contain meaningful human-readable
data gets smaller, which tends to mean the likelihood of false matches in
search results goes up. As you say, Microsoft really doesn't know what an
..FCS file is if there's no associated app. We don't know if it is text,
binary, database, executable, office doc, excel spreadsheet, XML etc. So we
do the safest thing and don't search it. But I agree it's sometimes
frustrating not to have that option.

One thing to note is that in the Indexing Control Panel you can add any
individual unknown extension and set it to be searched. So if there's a
specific file type like .FCS you can add this and the changes get stored in
the registry and future searches {indexed or non-indexed} will search this
file as plain text.

And finally, of course I can't comment on marketing materials promoting a
product put out by another company.


Dave Wood



"Celegans" <Celegans@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:%23$Akxce3HHA.5724@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> "Dave" <dave@beepbeep.com> wrote in message
> news:uAaHULe3HHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> You could make sure to use some of the 200 file types that WDS can
>> index...
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/des...earchtype.mspx
>>
>> http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/defaul...SearchIFilters
>>
>> http://www.ifilter.org/
> Dave, this is NOT a workable solution.
>
> Scientific instruments often create their own file types and sometimes
> these files need to be searched. Sometimes the files were created years
> ago. Sometimes the same file types are used by different vendors, so the
> file type alone doesn't say what's in a file. Can Microsoft distinguish
> between an FCS file that is Fluorescent Correlation Spectroscopy data and
> an FCS file that has Flow Cytometry Standard data? Or FCS files that have
> very different versions by vendor of Fluorescent Correlation Spectroscopy
> data?
>
> Give us a way to search in Vista that DOES NOT require indexing. Why is
> VISTA taking a feature away that's worked since Windows 95? Searching for
> a string and file filter at the same time is so difficult?
>
> How can I get Windows Explorer for Windows 2000 working under Windows
> Vista?. Is the capability in Windows Explorer from Windows 2000 too much
> to ask for in Vista so we can search scientific data? Just copying the
> Windows Explorer from Windows 2000 to Vista doesn't work. Can the registry
> be hacked to make it work?
>
> I don't want everything on my machines indexed, but I DO want to be able
> to do a guided search from a specified directory. Microsoft's "blind
> search of everything" approach is not acceptable. Why isn't Microsoft
> willing to help scientists search files without imposing indexing by
> Microsoft?
>
> So, I'll never be able to search a Linux file system with scientific data
> until Microsoft indexes all the Linux files?
>
> I can't believe how much time I've wasted trying to get a workable search
> in Vista. I can't believe how much time it took to figure out the search
> in XP was flawed and was not looking at all files.
>
>>> Why won't Microsoft admit that search is a problem in Vista, that
>>> search in Vista is "not adequate" and do something about it, instead of
>>> frustrating scientists and engineers who are trying to search
>>> scientific/engineering data using Vista?
>
>
>

Dave Wood:

I work with thousands and thousands of scientific files -- from Windows,
Linux and sometimes Macs. Many Linux folks don't bother with file
extensions and don't "honor" Microsoft's rules. So I can't search Linux
files now in Vista? I don't work with Macs much, but a few years ago I
wrote a program to add Windows file extensions to many Mac files when they
were imported to Windows. If Microsoft doesn't "bless" a file, it cannot be
searched now in Vista? Don't you understand how myopic your current design
is? This isn't Google searching the universe. I want to search MY PC and
Windows Vista will not search all MY files on MY PC without indexing.

Perhaps it's good that you made your life simpler with the search that
Microsoft implemented, but perhaps Microsoft should worry more about
customers with search problems. I could agree that indexing mail may be a
good idea, but I don't agree that indexing all file systems everywhere is
needed before a file search can be done by Vista.

Microsoft needs to make decisions that work for the majority, but what about
minority rights here? You decide that now I cannot solve certain problems
that could be solved using Windows for over a decade! How myopic was that
decision? Microsoft made search fast, but it gives the wrong (i.e.,
incomplete) answers sometimes? This isn't Google where finding anything of
interest is better than nothing. I want to search a very specific machine
(often MY machine) for very specific files (usually MY FILES), sometimes for
very specific string(s), and Microsoft has made that task impossible with
Windows Vista? Isn't it a bit arrogant of Microsoft to take away tools that
have worked since Windows 95 and make all search decisions for customers? I
paid more for "Ultimate" Vista, why can you at least let "Ultimate" Vista
users search all their files?

I don't want FORCED INDEXING OF ALL FILES -- the Index Control Panel is a
BAD IDEA. Give me Windows 2000 Windows Explorer and let me decide how files
will be searched -- let me use the Vista search index for a "quick and
dirty" search, or let me use "brute force" in an exhaustive search of all
files. Why can't we be given that option? I may want to occasionally
search binary files for strings, but I never want to index what may be in
those binary files.

I have spent years (decades) organizing files. I have personal files that
go back to 1980 -- yes files that existed before PCs did. I usually don't
need the "blind search" that Microsoft is pushing. You guys want to index
only certain files (you'll never get the list right) and then you can only
find things in the index. I want (I NEED) a guided search. I can get
close. I usually know what directories likely contain the files of interest.
Sometimes the files are mostly binary, but I may be looking for a particular
string. Sometimes I'm only searching by file names. Sometimes I want a
combination of filename(s) and particular string(s). Why should Microsoft
care if I'm trying to search binary files containing scientific data that
sometimes have strings of interest?

I will advise against us buying Windows Vista until Microsoft fixes the
Vista search problem (but Microsoft probably doesn't care about a few
hundred licenses). Our IT people already refuse to even look at Vista for
other reasons -- I'm a maverick for looking at it now..

Is a 3rd party search tool my only real option since Microsoft will never
admit how bad the current design is? Ultimately, will Microsoft "fix" the
"problem" by a combination of marketing hype and ignoring it? I need a
solution, but Microsoft is not helping.

Repeating this question which would be a "good enough" solution:
How can I get Windows Explorer from Windows 2000 working in Windows Vista?
(without using a VMware virtual machine)

"Dave Wood [MS]" <davewood@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:uk0ua7f3HHA.2752@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Just to be clear my name is Dave {well David}, not Doug and my last name
> is Wood, not Woods, and I'm not the same person as the other "Dave" also
> posting on this thread. With that cleared up, I have a couple of comments,
> but I don't have a perfect solution to what you are asking ...
>
> First off, I guess I should say that I'm an engineer and I use Vista
> search everyday. Okay I'm a developer at Microsoft on the Windows Search
> team, so I would say that wouldn't I? But there are a number of scenarios
> where the indexed Vista search has really made my life easier. Searching
> my Outlook mail - I have a few thousand mails in my Inbox and a few
> hundred thousand older mails in other folders. Keeping track of all my
> mail is hard, and searching this stuff using the older search was unusably
> slow, but now takes only a few seconds on Vista. Similarly searching all
> the docs, messages, html files etc. in all my project folders in
> c:\users\dave and c:\users\public works great for me.
>
> The default search options are a complex compromise between making the
> search fast, returning relevant results, being as complete as possible,
> and not taking too much system resources. Microsoft aims to provide
> features that work out of the box for the majority of users without
> customization. We then, in principle, provide advanced options for people
> to customize the search behavior if they need to. There are lots of
> advanced options, but there are cases like yours where I do worry that we
> haven't provided enough control - there is no "search unknown extensions
> as text" option, as you say. This feedback has definitely been received by
> us.
>
> One of the problems with searching ALL file types is that it assumes all
> files are text-based, which an awful lot of files types are not. And even
> if they are text-based the chances that they contain meaningful
> human-readable data gets smaller, which tends to mean the likelihood of
> false matches in search results goes up. As you say, Microsoft really
> doesn't know what an .FCS file is if there's no associated app. We don't
> know if it is text, binary, database, executable, office doc, excel
> spreadsheet, XML etc. So we do the safest thing and don't search it. But I
> agree it's sometimes frustrating not to have that option.
>
> One thing to note is that in the Indexing Control Panel you can add any
> individual unknown extension and set it to be searched. So if there's a
> specific file type like .FCS you can add this and the changes get stored
> in the registry and future searches {indexed or non-indexed} will search
> this file as plain text.
>
> And finally, of course I can't comment on marketing materials promoting a
> product put out by another company.
>
>
> Dave Wood

I am reposting something here which I posted into another thread
dealing with the same issue.

FYI - You don't need to "index" anything in order for the content
searching capabilities of Vista to be better than any previous
versions of Windows. It is full adequte for engineers and
scientists. The problem is that no one has taken the time to really
mess around and try and resolve the problem for these types of users.
I have done so this morning and finally figured it all out. But...
scientists should have figured it out before I did lol.

Here is my original post in the other thread from this morning:


Hello

This post may make everyone happy. I had this issue with XP before
when trying to search through the contents of thousands of EDI files
on a mapped network drive. The Microsoft KB article fixed the
problem. So... I just set up my new workstation this past week with
Windows Vista Ultimate and guess what? I have the same issue. When
XP first came out I got the hotfix from my MAPS support before
service
pack 1. I called them yesterday to see if there was a fix for Vista,
nope. They told me to try the XP fix and low and behold... IT WORKS.
Here are the steps you need to take:


First go and open up this MS KB because you'll need it:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309173/EN-US/


1. In the search settings on Vista you NEED to turn on the setting
to
"...always search file names and contents..." or whatever is says (I
am not going back there to look at the exact syntax) lol. Otherwise
it will only search the contents of indexed files.


2. You need to open up at least 1 of each of the "unknown" file types
with notepad and tell Vista to ALWAYS use notepad for this type of
file so that it will register the file type. I am searching through
files named *.TDF, *.ORD. *.BAK, etc.


3. BACK UP YOUR REGISTRY before doing any modifications...


4. You need to create the DWORD registry setting (or set it to 1 if
it
is there) in the method 2 part of the KB article.


5. You then need to create the registry keys for "PersistentHandler"
for each of the newly registered file types AS SHOWN at the bottom of
method 1 in the KB article. Make sure you copy and paste the value
that is shown for the text filter into the default - don't go trying
to type it out each time.


6. REBOOT or log off and back on. If you don't do this IT WON'T
WORK!


I hope that everyone will benefit from this post but I obvioulsy
offer
NO WARRANTY and/or support if you destroy your registry lol...


Anyways, it works perfectly for me as I am now able to search through
thousands of files on a mapped netowrk drive and I am happy so you
should be as well once you get it all straightened out. Don't blame
Microsoft either - they are just doing what is best for the majority
of users by making the search fast and effective - most users are not
looking for text within a 1/2 million files that are wacky
unregistered extensions.


Have fun!
Marc

Sorry I forgot this part again...

I should have mentioned that in step 2 - if the files are too big to
open in notepad then you will need to register the file types
manually
in the registry then enter the key for each in step 5.

Yes. Note that this is basically doing the same thing as opening the
Indexing Options Control Panel -> Advanced -> File Types and using the "Add
New Extension" button to add the file extensions you want indexed. I think
this will make basically the same changes in the registry as you are doing
yourself.


<mjones@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1188581549.352476.36470@xxxxxx

Yes you can add a file type there but you can't create the
PersistentHandler key there - you have to edit the registry to do so.

On another note - I have no clue how you can make this work for files
with no extensions (no file type at all) because you can't create a
class entry that is null. You can add the file type with just a
period and no extension but it doesn't apply to files with no
extension unles you name them like "something. " not just
"something "

So I can't help with that. But, you can use findstr in a command
prompt to search through files with no period and no extension. I
have never had to do that before until I just tested it now.

Marc

No the Control Panel absolutely does add the PersistentHandler into the
registry. In the Indexing Options Control Panel on the File Types tab, type
your extension, click Add New Extension and then select "Index File
Properties and Contents". Then check your registry. I just tried to be sure.

<mjones@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1188583943.798183.274030@xxxxxx