Vista - Vista -> XP upgrade problems

Hi,

I have a repair shop for (among other things) computers. Now I've stopped
using and supporting Windows already a decade ago in favour of Linux, but
I still get a fair amount of calls for help or support from Windows
users, mostly hardware issues, but sometimes software questions as well.
Lately, however, I experience a huge surge in help calls about Vista.

I ususally advise those people to bring their Vista machines back to
where they bought them, and ask for an upgrade to XP (or do it
themselves, or have Linux installed) -- but it turns out that lots of
those preinstalled Vista machines simply can't be upgraded to XP, as
there are no XP drivers for the hardware in question!

Several of those people are severely screwed, because Vista doesn't work
for them (incompatible software, general sluggishness, occasional crashes
and other annoying issues), yet they can't get XP installed on their
$1200 laptop computers -- even the computer shop where they bought the
bloody things didn't succeed. Yet they can't return the machines under
warranty, because technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with the
hardware, and Vista runs sort of OK after a fresh install -- just not for
very long.

Is this a known problem? Is there indeed hardware for which there are no
XP drivers? If so, then at least I know what to tell my customers, and
advise them to steer clear of Vista altogether, preinstalled or not.

TIA, regards,

Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl/

I would suggest you tell your Windows customers
to take their business to a competent repair shop
that does use and support Windows.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Richard Rasker" wrote:

Hi,

I have a repair shop for (among other things) computers. Now I've stopped
using and supporting Windows already a decade ago in favour of Linux, but
I still get a fair amount of calls for help or support from Windows
users, mostly hardware issues, but sometimes software questions as well.
Lately, however, I experience a huge surge in help calls about Vista.

I ususally advise those people to bring their Vista machines back to
where they bought them, and ask for an upgrade to XP (or do it
themselves, or have Linux installed) -- but it turns out that lots of
those preinstalled Vista machines simply can't be upgraded to XP, as
there are no XP drivers for the hardware in question!

Several of those people are severely screwed, because Vista doesn't work
for them (incompatible software, general sluggishness, occasional crashes
and other annoying issues), yet they can't get XP installed on their
$1200 laptop computers -- even the computer shop where they bought the
bloody things didn't succeed. Yet they can't return the machines under
warranty, because technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with the
hardware, and Vista runs sort of OK after a fresh install -- just not for
very long.

Is this a known problem? Is there indeed hardware for which there are no
XP drivers? If so, then at least I know what to tell my customers, and
advise them to steer clear of Vista altogether, preinstalled or not.

TIA, regards,

Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl/

"Richard Rasker" <spamtrap@linetec.nl> wrote in message
news:WtednVm3SJb6SiDbRVnyigA@fiberworld.nl...
> Hi,
>
> I have a repair shop for (among other things) computers. Now I've stopped
> using and supporting Windows already a decade ago in favour of Linux, but
> I still get a fair amount of calls for help or support from Windows
> users, mostly hardware issues, but sometimes software questions as well.
> Lately, however, I experience a huge surge in help calls about Vista.
>
> I ususally advise those people to bring their Vista machines back to
> where they bought them, and ask for an upgrade to XP (or do it
> themselves, or have Linux installed) -- but it turns out that lots of
> those preinstalled Vista machines simply can't be upgraded to XP, as
> there are no XP drivers for the hardware in question!
>
> Several of those people are severely screwed, because Vista doesn't work
> for them (incompatible software, general sluggishness, occasional crashes
> and other annoying issues), yet they can't get XP installed on their
> $1200 laptop computers -- even the computer shop where they bought the
> bloody things didn't succeed. Yet they can't return the machines under
> warranty, because technically speaking, there is nothing wrong with the
> hardware, and Vista runs sort of OK after a fresh install -- just not for
> very long.
>
> Is this a known problem? Is there indeed hardware for which there are no
> XP drivers? If so, then at least I know what to tell my customers, and
> advise them to steer clear of Vista altogether, preinstalled or not.
>
> TIA, regards,
>
> Richard Rasker
> --
> http://www.linetec.nl/
>
Its a downgrade to XP not up. That is why you cannot do it.

The drivers when vista is installed are for vista. If you now put XP on
their hard drives you will need XP drivers for their hardware and software.

So many millions use Vista including me with no problem so you are getting
the one's who should have been instructed about a new system in the first
place but computer sellers seldom do that.

Vista preinstalled will run the hardware that is for it but if you run older
hardware and software you may need update drivers for those manufactures.

With your lack of apparent knowledge I would just tell the folks to go back
to their sellers and plead.



--
Ian

With patience there is always a way.

Please Reply to Newsgroup so all can read.
Requests for assistance by email can not and will be deleted.

Richard Rasker wrote:

(snippage)

> Is this a known problem? Is there indeed hardware for which there are no
> XP drivers? If so, then at least I know what to tell my customers, and
> advise them to steer clear of Vista altogether, preinstalled or not.

As a long-time Linux user (which I am also), you should know that there
is nothing unusual in drivers not being written for a particular
operating system.

As for the rest of your post, I can't really address it because blanket
advice as to what operating system a client should use rarely works. It
is far better to explain the pros and cons of using a specific operating
system to the client and helping them choose the right one based on
*their* needs.

Malke
--
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic!"
MS-MVP Windows - Shell/User

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:05:40 -0700, Malke wrote:

> Richard Rasker wrote:
>
> (snippage)
>
>> Is this a known problem? Is there indeed hardware for which there are
>> no XP drivers? If so, then at least I know what to tell my customers,
>> and advise them to steer clear of Vista altogether, preinstalled or
>> not.
>
> As a long-time Linux user (which I am also), you should know that there
> is nothing unusual in drivers not being written for a particular
> operating system.

The trouble is that these people I'm referring to bought their Vista
machines under the presumption (and sometimes even the seller's
guarantee) that they could always switch to XP if Vista didn't work for
them. They heard the bad press about Vista, and actually didn't really
feel like buying a Vista machine, but hey, it was almost the only OS on
offer with new machines a few months ago, and of course salespeople said
that all those tales of woe were mere incidents. So they got a Vista
machine anyway.

And now it turns out that quite a number of people have major trouble
with Vista. From what I see around me, the number could be as high as 50%
of all new Vista users. A significant number of those people could not
get XP installed on their brand new machines.

OK, as a Linux user I know all about drivers being made for one OS only
-- and it's a major nuisance. But at least the OSes for which most
drivers were made (XP, W2k, W98) were relatively mature products; also, I
rarely came across "XP-only" drivers, if ever. Even today, every piece of
hardware I buy comes with drivers for XP, W2k, Me, and more often than
not W98 as well.
But here it seems that lots of people are stuck with hardware they can
only use with this beta-software called Vista, and thus they have no real
choice: use Vista, whether they like it or not, or shell out major cash
for yet another new machine. Great. Each and every one of these people
doesn't want to use Vista any more, simply because it doesn't work for
them -- but they feel they have no choice in the matter.

And oh yes, of course I advised them to go back to the store with their
problems, and most did. But that didn't really bring any solution. Sure,
they could try and consult a more "professional" computer service to sort
out their problems with Vista, but that's of course throwing good money
after bad money. Several people had actually spent hundreds of dollars
already on more RAM (to speed things up), a spiffier video card (for
same), and new, "Vista ready" software. But they were still faced with
showstoppers such as all kinds of favourite software and drivers for very
common devices being incompatible, or causing major trouble (antivirus
products appear notorious).

> As for the rest of your post, I can't really address it because blanket
> advice as to what operating system a client should use rarely works. It
> is far better to explain the pros and cons of using a specific operating
> system to the client and helping them choose the right one based on
> *their* needs.

These people need working computers, with the software they prefer, like,
or are familiar with. And from what I see and hear, "choosing" Vista is
not a good choice at all -- the problem being that in most retail chains,
you get no choice. It's Vista or nothing.

Can you please give *one* reason why someone would be better off buying a
Vista machine than an XP machine? I can't come up with a single reason.
There's nothing you can do with a Vista machine that you can't do equally
well (and in most cases even better and faster) with an XP machine.
I can, however, come up with lots of reasons to stay away from Vista,
this ridiculous driver problem being just one.

OK, I'm not really impartial -- I had a Vista machine at my disposal for
a few weeks (borrowed from someone who already said that buying it "was a
mistake" -- and also one of those people who couldn't get XP running on
it); it's been one of the most horrible computing experiences in my
life, and one that I would not to repeat for even a thousand dollars.
Incompatible this, unavailable that, endless stupid UAC popups, the
machine slowing to a crawl at the dro pof a hat, for no apparent reason
at all, crashes ... the list is endless. Also, there is no-one in my
vicinity who has actually managed to use it trouble-free for more than a
few weeks.
So I wouldn't touch it again with a ten foot pole, and I think that's
what I'll advise anyone who asks me about it. Get Linux if you don't
really need Windows, or demand XP otherwise.

Then again, there might be millions of happy Vista users we never hear
from, but if what I see around me is anything to go by, there may be an
equal number of people who *do* have serious problems, and I don't find
that acceptable. The number of problem reports and complaints alone are
an alarming indication that this OS should never have been shoved out on
the market.

Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl/

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:22:10 +0100, Ian Betts wrote:

> "Richard Rasker" <spamtrap@linetec.nl> wrote in message
> news:WtednVm3SJb6SiDbRVnyigA@fiberworld.nl...

[snip Vista-only hardware?]

> Its a downgrade to XP not up. That is why you cannot do it.

Vista doesn't even come close XP in terms of general performance,
reliability, compatibility and usability; so as the superior OS, XP is
considered an upgrade.

>
> The drivers when vista is installed are for vista. If you now put XP on
> their hard drives you will need XP drivers for their hardware and
> software.

I'm not talking attempting to do some sort of subtle upgrade; it was
simply a matter of wiping the HD, and trying to perform a clean XP
install. This fails on quite a percentage of occasions because of a lack
of XP drivers for key hardware. This is a very bad situation, boiling
down to shoving Vista down people's throats, whether they like it or not.

And it's not just the Vista users themselves who run into this problem.
In the course of my work, I have contacts with several computer dealers/
suppliers, repair shops and service centers, and they all confirm the
situation: a significant (I hear numbers between 20 and 50%) percentage
of Vista buyers complain about problems, and most of these people want XP
back. As it turns out, this often can't be done, especially with laptop
computers. There simply appear to be no XP drivers for the latest
hardware.

> So many millions use Vista including me with no problem so you are
> getting the one's who should have been instructed about a new system in
> the first place but computer sellers seldom do that.

We all know that they just want to sell stuff, and Vista is a very good
excuse to sell people a vastly more expensive piece of hardware than they
actually need.

> Vista preinstalled will run the hardware that is for it but if you run
> older hardware and software you may need update drivers for those
> manufactures.
>
> With your lack of apparent knowledge I would just tell the folks to go
> back to their sellers and plead.

I have some (two weeks) experience with Vista, but for me, that was a
nightmare, used as I am to having full control over my computers, and
being able to quickly find solutions to problems (solutions which,
admittedly, boil down to "compile stuff yourself" in rare cases). But
either I can get things working quickly, or I know I can't get them
working at all, and why.

Apparently, to use Vista without trouble, you have to virtually walk on
eggs, thoroughly checking anything and everything you want to install
(both software /and/ hardware) for comaptibility first. That is not
something people are used to; one of the main reasons I hear why people
choose Windows over Linux is that "with Windows, I don't have to worry
about compatibility and checking things out first. you get it, you
install it, and it works." Well, not any more, it seems.

And don't worry: I'll keep referring people with Vista trouble to others
who offer Windows service and repair. I don't want to have anything to do
with Vista again, ever.

Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl/