New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking

New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking

Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
before.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx

Ask questions or post comments about the article here.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

__
Suzy Gillett
Site Manager, vendor [MS]

The article was helpful, but it seems to me that Vista attempted to solve a
problem which didn't exist, and it the process created a real problem which
will delay its implementation.

Specifically, using LLTP Discovery as the *only* method to connect to
workgroup computers doesn't seem necessary to me. The TCP/IP discoivery
which XP and many previous operating systems supports works just fine for
finding workgroup computers, and Vista should use that as a fallback after
trying LLTP. If it did that, one could subsitute or add a Vista computer in
an existing workgroup by doing nothing. Instead, adding the first Vista
machine means that *all possible* XP (and other Op.system) machines must be
upgraded for the Vista machine to work correctly. Thanks, but no thanks.

"vendor [MS]" wrote:

> New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking
>
> Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
> wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
> before.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx
>
> Ask questions or post comments about the article here.
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
>
> __
> Suzy Gillett
> Site Manager, vendor [MS]
>

1. Vista does not use LLTD to "connect to computers, what you saw in
the article was that it uses it to place them on the map

2. Netbios discovery over TCP/IP is still functional - computers are
discovered, but can't be placed on a map because the protocols don't
support mapping.

3. all network functionality still works. in fact if you explorer
the network, you see very much the same views as in XP (as I
documented)

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:25:00 -0800, pcbiker
<pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>The article was helpful, but it seems to me that Vista attempted to solve a
>problem which didn't exist, and it the process created a real problem which
>will delay its implementation.
>
>Specifically, using LLTP Discovery as the *only* method to connect to
>workgroup computers doesn't seem necessary to me. The TCP/IP discoivery
>which XP and many previous operating systems supports works just fine for
>finding workgroup computers, and Vista should use that as a fallback after
>trying LLTP. If it did that, one could subsitute or add a Vista computer in
>an existing workgroup by doing nothing. Instead, adding the first Vista
>machine means that *all possible* XP (and other Op.system) machines must be
>upgraded for the Vista machine to work correctly. Thanks, but no thanks.
>
>"vendor [MS]" wrote:
>
>> New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking
>>
>> Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
>> wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
>> before.
>>
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx
>>
>> Ask questions or post comments about the article here.
>>
>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
>>
>> __
>> Suzy Gillett
>> Site Manager, vendor [MS]
>>
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

OK, but please explain how this all works:

I run my home network with Netbios & UPNP disabled (for security) on all
computers. Using an XP computer, each computer can see all other computers
(including a Linux file server), see & access each of the folders shared on
each computer, and print to each printer shared on each of the computers.
Except for the server, all computers use DCHP run by a Linksys router.

How can my Vista computer see & access each of the folders shared on each of
the other computers, and print to each printer shared on each of the other
computers? If it happens "right out of the box", what's the Vista equivalent
of "Network Neighborhood" to see the other computers, shared folders, and
shared printers? [Note that, by definition, I cannot specify machines by IP
address.]

If something needs to be changed, what are the *minimum* set of changes
necessary to make Vista home networking have the same functions as XP home
networking?

Thanks.

"Barb Bowman" wrote:

> 1. Vista does not use LLTD to "connect to computers, what you saw in
> the article was that it uses it to place them on the map
>
> 2. Netbios discovery over TCP/IP is still functional - computers are
> discovered, but can't be placed on a map because the protocols don't
> support mapping.
>
> 3. all network functionality still works. in fact if you explorer
> the network, you see very much the same views as in XP (as I
> documented)
>
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:25:00 -0800, pcbiker
> <pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >The article was helpful, but it seems to me that Vista attempted to solve a
> >problem which didn't exist, and it the process created a real problem which
> >will delay its implementation.
> >
> >Specifically, using LLTP Discovery as the *only* method to connect to
> >workgroup computers doesn't seem necessary to me. The TCP/IP discoivery
> >which XP and many previous operating systems supports works just fine for
> >finding workgroup computers, and Vista should use that as a fallback after
> >trying LLTP. If it did that, one could subsitute or add a Vista computer in
> >an existing workgroup by doing nothing. Instead, adding the first Vista
> >machine means that *all possible* XP (and other Op.system) machines must be
> >upgraded for the Vista machine to work correctly. Thanks, but no thanks.
> >
> >"vendor [MS]" wrote:
> >
> >> New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking
> >>
> >> Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
> >> wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
> >> before.
> >>
> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx
> >>
> >> Ask questions or post comments about the article here.
> >>
> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
> >>
> >> __
> >> Suzy Gillett
> >> Site Manager, vendor [MS]
> >>
> --
>
> Barb Bowman
> MS Windows-MVP
> Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
> http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/
>

In Vista, you need to set the network to private.

start button
network

will show computers in normal situations. You are behind a router,
turning off Netbios and UPnP does not achieve anything.

As for sharing files and folders, you should change the workgroup
name of the Vista machine to match the existing workgroup.

other answers depend on whether you have password protected file
sharing on the existing computers.






On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 15:58:01 -0800, pcbiker
<pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>OK, but please explain how this all works:
>
>I run my home network with Netbios & UPNP disabled (for security) on all
>computers. Using an XP computer, each computer can see all other computers
>(including a Linux file server), see & access each of the folders shared on
>each computer, and print to each printer shared on each of the computers.
>Except for the server, all computers use DCHP run by a Linksys router.
>
>How can my Vista computer see & access each of the folders shared on each of
>the other computers, and print to each printer shared on each of the other
>computers? If it happens "right out of the box", what's the Vista equivalent
>of "Network Neighborhood" to see the other computers, shared folders, and
>shared printers? [Note that, by definition, I cannot specify machines by IP
>address.]
>
>If something needs to be changed, what are the *minimum* set of changes
>necessary to make Vista home networking have the same functions as XP home
>networking?
>
>Thanks.
>
>"Barb Bowman" wrote:
>
>> 1. Vista does not use LLTD to "connect to computers, what you saw in
>> the article was that it uses it to place them on the map
>>
>> 2. Netbios discovery over TCP/IP is still functional - computers are
>> discovered, but can't be placed on a map because the protocols don't
>> support mapping.
>>
>> 3. all network functionality still works. in fact if you explorer
>> the network, you see very much the same views as in XP (as I
>> documented)
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:25:00 -0800, pcbiker
>> <pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The article was helpful, but it seems to me that Vista attempted to solve a
>> >problem which didn't exist, and it the process created a real problem which
>> >will delay its implementation.
>> >
>> >Specifically, using LLTP Discovery as the *only* method to connect to
>> >workgroup computers doesn't seem necessary to me. The TCP/IP discoivery
>> >which XP and many previous operating systems supports works just fine for
>> >finding workgroup computers, and Vista should use that as a fallback after
>> >trying LLTP. If it did that, one could subsitute or add a Vista computer in
>> >an existing workgroup by doing nothing. Instead, adding the first Vista
>> >machine means that *all possible* XP (and other Op.system) machines must be
>> >upgraded for the Vista machine to work correctly. Thanks, but no thanks.
>> >
>> >"vendor [MS]" wrote:
>> >
>> >> New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking
>> >>
>> >> Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
>> >> wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
>> >> before.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx
>> >>
>> >> Ask questions or post comments about the article here.
>> >>
>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
>> >>
>> >> __
>> >> Suzy Gillett
>> >> Site Manager, vendor [MS]
>> >>
>> --
>>
>> Barb Bowman
>> MS Windows-MVP
>> Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
>> http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/
>>
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

also, you could install
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...DisplayLang=en
on the XP machines but I'm not sure what happens with UPnP and
Netbios over TCP/IP turned off.

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 15:58:01 -0800, pcbiker
<pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>OK, but please explain how this all works:
>
>I run my home network with Netbios & UPNP disabled (for security) on all
>computers. Using an XP computer, each computer can see all other computers
>(including a Linux file server), see & access each of the folders shared on
>each computer, and print to each printer shared on each of the computers.
>Except for the server, all computers use DCHP run by a Linksys router.
>
>How can my Vista computer see & access each of the folders shared on each of
>the other computers, and print to each printer shared on each of the other
>computers? If it happens "right out of the box", what's the Vista equivalent
>of "Network Neighborhood" to see the other computers, shared folders, and
>shared printers? [Note that, by definition, I cannot specify machines by IP
>address.]
>
>If something needs to be changed, what are the *minimum* set of changes
>necessary to make Vista home networking have the same functions as XP home
>networking?
>
>Thanks.
>
>"Barb Bowman" wrote:
>
>> 1. Vista does not use LLTD to "connect to computers, what you saw in
>> the article was that it uses it to place them on the map
>>
>> 2. Netbios discovery over TCP/IP is still functional - computers are
>> discovered, but can't be placed on a map because the protocols don't
>> support mapping.
>>
>> 3. all network functionality still works. in fact if you explorer
>> the network, you see very much the same views as in XP (as I
>> documented)
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 21:25:00 -0800, pcbiker
>> <pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The article was helpful, but it seems to me that Vista attempted to solve a
>> >problem which didn't exist, and it the process created a real problem which
>> >will delay its implementation.
>> >
>> >Specifically, using LLTP Discovery as the *only* method to connect to
>> >workgroup computers doesn't seem necessary to me. The TCP/IP discoivery
>> >which XP and many previous operating systems supports works just fine for
>> >finding workgroup computers, and Vista should use that as a fallback after
>> >trying LLTP. If it did that, one could subsitute or add a Vista computer in
>> >an existing workgroup by doing nothing. Instead, adding the first Vista
>> >machine means that *all possible* XP (and other Op.system) machines must be
>> >upgraded for the Vista machine to work correctly. Thanks, but no thanks.
>> >
>> >"vendor [MS]" wrote:
>> >
>> >> New Community Column: Windows Vista Home Networking
>> >>
>> >> Columnist Barb Bowman previews the new networking features and helpful
>> >> wizards in Windows Vista that make setting up a network easier than ever
>> >> before.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...etworking.mspx
>> >>
>> >> Ask questions or post comments about the article here.
>> >>
>> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
>> >>
>> >> __
>> >> Suzy Gillett
>> >> Site Manager, vendor [MS]
>> >>
>> --
>>
>> Barb Bowman
>> MS Windows-MVP
>> Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
>> http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/
>>
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Barb, I appreciate your help so far. Here's what I found:

1. On Vista, I have the network set Private, and the workgroup name set
(apparently) correctly. I say "apparently" because the Network page show the
workgroup ALL CAPS (as it is in XP), but the network status tooltip (lower
r.h. corner of screen) show the name as Initial Cap only. Probably not
significant, but I want you to know what I see.

2. I installed the LLTP service on one of the XP machines (which still has
Netbios & uPnP disabled). That machine (among the 5 XP machines on my
workgroup) now shows up on the network map. BTW, that machine runs XP Pro;
the other 4 run XP Home.

3. I stll haven't figure out how to access any of the shaed folders on the
XP Pro/LLTP machine. When I double-click on the machine of the nework map,
nothing happens. When I type in "//machine name/foldername" on the Run box,
I get "folder inaccessable" error message.

4. I haven't found any way in Vista to see, or access, the other 4 XP
machines at all. How should I do this? Or, stated differently, what I am
not seeing on Vista that I should see?

5. The Linux file server runs Samba, and is designated as the workgroup
browse master. I did this because the server runs 24/7, and so my family
will never have to wait for a workgroup master-browser election. And it
works properly with the XP machines. Would this be making a difference to
Vista?

6. The server also has a fixed IP address. Vista will not access this
machine or its shared folders, even by IP address or by name.

By way of personal background, I'm a professional computer consultant,
specializing in XP machines, with occasional forays into Win 2000 and older
versions of Windows. My clients tell me I'm pretty good at this, so you can
assume that I am at least generally representative of actual field
technicians who will be dealing with Vista. If I can't make a mixed Vista/XP
workgroup function, after consulting the online help and Googling things like
mad, then it might be reasonable to conclude that (a) I've overlooked
something obvious, or (b) Vista and its documentation leaves much to be
desired in terms of workgroup support.

I would hope that (a) is the correct conclusion; and I hope that you can
lead me to the resolution of my workgroup problem. After all, I've made
stupid errors in the past (as have we all), and expect to make a few in the
future.

are you using password protected sharing on all the XP computers? or
are you relying on the guest account (see
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/300489 )

I'm still curious as to why you think disabling UPnP and Netbios
over TCP/IP when you are behind a router is a security risk.

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:29:00 -0800, pcbiker
<pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>Barb, I appreciate your help so far. Here's what I found:
>
>1. On Vista, I have the network set Private, and the workgroup name set
>(apparently) correctly. I say "apparently" because the Network page show the
>workgroup ALL CAPS (as it is in XP), but the network status tooltip (lower
>r.h. corner of screen) show the name as Initial Cap only. Probably not
>significant, but I want you to know what I see.
>
>2. I installed the LLTP service on one of the XP machines (which still has
>Netbios & uPnP disabled). That machine (among the 5 XP machines on my
>workgroup) now shows up on the network map. BTW, that machine runs XP Pro;
>the other 4 run XP Home.
>
>3. I stll haven't figure out how to access any of the shaed folders on the
>XP Pro/LLTP machine. When I double-click on the machine of the nework map,
>nothing happens. When I type in "//machine name/foldername" on the Run box,
>I get "folder inaccessable" error message.
>
>4. I haven't found any way in Vista to see, or access, the other 4 XP
>machines at all. How should I do this? Or, stated differently, what I am
>not seeing on Vista that I should see?
>
>5. The Linux file server runs Samba, and is designated as the workgroup
>browse master. I did this because the server runs 24/7, and so my family
>will never have to wait for a workgroup master-browser election. And it
>works properly with the XP machines. Would this be making a difference to
>Vista?
>
>6. The server also has a fixed IP address. Vista will not access this
>machine or its shared folders, even by IP address or by name.
>
>By way of personal background, I'm a professional computer consultant,
>specializing in XP machines, with occasional forays into Win 2000 and older
>versions of Windows. My clients tell me I'm pretty good at this, so you can
>assume that I am at least generally representative of actual field
>technicians who will be dealing with Vista. If I can't make a mixed Vista/XP
>workgroup function, after consulting the online help and Googling things like
>mad, then it might be reasonable to conclude that (a) I've overlooked
>something obvious, or (b) Vista and its documentation leaves much to be
>desired in terms of workgroup support.
>
>I would hope that (a) is the correct conclusion; and I hope that you can
>lead me to the resolution of my workgroup problem. After all, I've made
>stupid errors in the past (as have we all), and expect to make a few in the
>future.
>
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/

Here are the sharing privileges:

XP Pro - Guest off, shared folders have unrestricted read set at the ACL
level.
XP Home - Guest off, folders shared for read/wirite access, but these
computers mainly are sharing clients.
Linux - Shared folders have full read/write access.

Note that this configuration works perfectly for XP machines - the question
here is what else does Vista require?

I turn Netbios & uPnP off because that is recommended as a security
improvement. It may not be necessary if the router's firewall does its job
and all other local machines remain secure, but (a) as a computer consultant,
I see lots of different computers (some with routers and some without), and
so I run NETBIOS & uPnP off on all machines, all the time, automatically; and
(b) even if the machines are behind this router today, they might not always
be (under a variety of scenarios).

Could you answer the following questions 3-5 from my prior post - which I
feel are the crux of the problem - or perhaps refer my issues to someone who
can?

3. I still haven't figure out how to access any of the shaed folders on the
XP Pro/LLTP machine. When I double-click on the machine of the nework map,
nothing happens. When I type in "//machine name/foldername" on the Run box,
I get "folder inaccessable" error message.

4. I haven't found any way in Vista to see, or access, the other 4 XP
machines at all. How should I do this? Or, stated differently, what I am
not seeing on Vista that I should see?

5. The Linux file server runs Samba, and is designated as the workgroup
browse master. I did this because the server runs 24/7, and so my family
will never have to wait for a workgroup master-browser election. And it
works properly with the XP machines. Would this be making a difference to
Vista?

From an XP user's viewpoint, the problem with Vista is that there is no
"Network Neighborhood" icon or "Network" icon within Windows Explorer. So to
the user, there is no obvious place where one can go to see any
representation of the other workgroup computers.

3. I missed that you were trying to access the shares from the start
menu in Vista (or from run in Vista). Can you try this on the Vista
box.

right click nextwork on the Start menu
select Explore - do you see the other computers?
- if yes, when you double click one of them do you see the shares
- if no, along the top there are listings for Name, Category,
Workgroup, etc. Workgroup is a drop down. Are your other computers
in a different workgroup? Can you select it? Can you access shares?

4. mostly coverd in 3 above

5. anything in event viewer on the Vista machine mention master
browser election failure?


On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:39:00 -0800, pcbiker
<pcbiker@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>
>3. I still haven't figure out how to access any of the shaed folders on the
>XP Pro/LLTP machine. When I double-click on the machine of the nework map,
>nothing happens. When I type in "//machine name/foldername" on the Run box,
>I get "folder inaccessable" error message.
>
>4. I haven't found any way in Vista to see, or access, the other 4 XP
>machines at all. How should I do this? Or, stated differently, what I am
>not seeing on Vista that I should see?
>
>5. The Linux file server runs Samba, and is designated as the workgroup
>browse master. I did this because the server runs 24/7, and so my family
>will never have to wait for a workgroup master-browser election. And it
>works properly with the XP machines. Would this be making a difference to
>Vista?
>
>From an XP user's viewpoint, the problem with Vista is that there is no
>"Network Neighborhood" icon or "Network" icon within Windows Explorer. So to
>the user, there is no obvious place where one can go to see any
>representation of the other workgroup computers.
--

Barb Bowman
MS Windows-MVP
Expert Zone & Vista Community Columnist
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/e...ts/bowman.mspx
http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/