Vista Tutorial - 64-bit: More than just the RAM

**rasmasyean** · 08-21-2008

Quote: Originally Posted by roy69

I find it very hard to belive that a 64bit system is twice as fast as a 32bit system. In the old days when you went from 8bit to 16bit I could understand the computers getting faster quicker because of the maximum amount a varialble can hold in one memory location. The difference between 8 to 16 is more benificial than from 32 to 64 bit. Unless you are dealing with very very large numbers.

Let me explain. The largest number a variable can hold in 8 bit is 255
This is a low number so is used alot. This is why upgrading to 16bit was a good thing, the os doubled in speed because the variables can now handle a number up to 65535. This in its self is a large number.
Now you move to 32bit and the largest number there is 4294967295. This is a very large number and most (not all) programs will get this high.
Now 64 bit can handle numbers up to 18446744073709600000 or there abouts. If a 64bit system wants to use a number bigger than this it will take two clock cycles of cpu time not one. These clock cycles is where the main speed increase is.

I don't know how many times speed is vs. 64, but I guess I should point out that you are talking about integers. There are also numbers called "floating point". There is decimal and some others too that I can't think of right now. But what you wrote seems to be a simplified scenario and it doesn't exactly work that way for all operations.

**roy69** · 08-22-2008

Ok I agree that I have just talked about integer Variables and there are alot of other type. Floating point being the decimal point, also signed and unsigned values which basically cut the amount stored in half for examply instead of 0 to 255 it is now -128 to 128. If a program uses alot of maths routines then it will have a speed increase. However not all of the program is going to be math routines. You will get different menu routines, routines to save data and so on. Doubling the amount of bits will not double the speed on normal programs or maths intensive programs. On normal programs you will not notice much difference. On maths intensive programs you will get a big increase but not twice as much.

**Adrian Wainer** · 08-22-2008

Quote: Originally Posted by KrossX

It's interesting to see how everything is based on "how much RAM this and that". I've actually ran Vista x64 with 1GB RAM just for the heck of it, not trouble at all for common tasks (not games).

But for example, the benefit I get from 64 bit computing is not the ammount of RAM it can adress (if it has it to being with), but the ability to actually run my programs twice faster. I never thought it would be such a change to make my simple equation solver on 64 bit, it was actually twice faster for double and I loved the long long variables.

Nevertheless, knowing that actually the M$ OS are becoming more and more like an X-PC-Box gaming OS. It's logical to think just about the RAM and if the "x64" on the box would give you more FPS... or if you could put more stuff in SLI... kinda, depressing.

Hi roy69, rasmasyean and sidewinder this is the posting that sparked the whole "twice as fast debate", well I do not wish to criticize another poster but the way it is written up it is nearly impossible to read ie the colours used for some of the text and the style of writeing is frankly bizarre, so really I would not worry about it too much. Runing one's computer as little more than a super pocket calculator, may or may not produce a 100% increase in speed but very few people's computer usage fits in to that category. So really it appears to me as if there are aspects of this debate, which are akin to three men aboard a submarine argueing who should have the parachute.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

**KrossX** · 08-23-2008

Hahahaha, this is fun.

Well, just to make it clear... I remade my program for 64bit, and yes it runs (my program, not the hole OS nor other programs) in averange twice faster. Basicly, it requires less cycles overall and less iterations to archieve the desired error. It's a pretty simple program easy to test and measure.

And just to make another thing clear... 32bit applications WONT run twice faster on a 64bit OS, period.... and even supposed 64bit applications most likely WONT run twice faster comparted to their 32bit counterpart, yes another period.

It was only needed to read the post properly, but I admit it, the colors are aweful. Although, I did put a note that says "Added colors and stuff out of boredom", so I'm free of guilt. =P

**Brink** · 08-23-2008

Another article of interest:

Chomping at the (64) bit

Source:
Chomping at the (64) bit: Consumer Reports Electronics Blog

**Adrian Wainer** · 08-24-2008

Hi Kross, really I was not haveing a go at you, so thanks you took it in good spirit....where I am coming from is that in an open forum there are all sorts of people viewing it and one has to be somewhat careful what one says, in that even very intelligent people can not be experts in everything. E.G. I was recently on a forum with another poster who is a jet passenger airliner pilot and who is much better than most people with computers and he went out and bought a second card to run crossfire for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, when as best I am aware it will not run any faster with a second card, it might even run slower and it might even not run at all with two cards. So if somebody comes on to a forum and starts saying that Vista 64 runs twice as fast, people can come away from that thinking, yeah I'll replace my XP with Vista 64 and my computer will run twice as fast.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

**rasmasyean** · 08-24-2008

Quote: Originally Posted by Brink

Another article of interest:

Chomping at the (64) bit

Source:
Chomping at the (64) bit: Consumer Reports Electronics Blog

As we can see, it's all about the extra RAM and the performance acceleration from SuperFetch. The RAM prices dropping like hotcakes and increase habits of multitasking fuel the 64-bit move. Just like I said!

**Brink** · 08-24-2008

LOL Rasmasyean,

The extra RAM certainely helps for now, but it is just a great bonus until software is made to truly use 64 bit. Read through the article in the first post to see the other main advantages that 64 bit offers.

**KrossX** · 08-24-2008

@Adrian Wainer: Yes, I really didn't think about it that way.

Although my point was, as Brink said, that there's more to the 64 bits than just more RAM. Wich is actually the topic's title...

And yes, time will pass until true 64bits applications are seen extracting juice from our super-multi-stuff-something-64-processors.... Maybe once 128bits processing is around for PC's and alike? And then... a new topic will appear! "128 bits: More than just cookies". Hehehehe

**rasmasyean** · 08-25-2008

Well...if you put it THAT way, the "quantum computers" over the horizon will blow 64-bit AND 128-bit out of the water!

Hey, the first "notable" title that is coming out soon is Adobe CS4. And even then, only selective people will use that. Perhaps it is very true that 64-bit has great "processing" advantages. But practically it means very little until what you say (and that article says) will happen in the future...whenever that may be. Heck, by that time it might already be time to upgrade to Windows 7. And all those scientists have already been using 64-bit for years like in XP-64 (with equation solvers or whatever) anyway.

The question then becomes...why should "everyone else" go Vista 64-bit. And that's what we want an answer to...imho.

08-21-2008	#51 (permalink)
rasmasyean Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Vista Ultimate x64 209 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Quote: Originally Posted by roy69 I find it very hard to belive that a 64bit system is twice as fast as a 32bit system. In the old days when you went from 8bit to 16bit I could understand the computers getting faster quicker because of the maximum amount a varialble can hold in one memory location. The difference between 8 to 16 is more benificial than from 32 to 64 bit. Unless you are dealing with very very large numbers. Let me explain. The largest number a variable can hold in 8 bit is 255 This is a low number so is used alot. This is why upgrading to 16bit was a good thing, the os doubled in speed because the variables can now handle a number up to 65535. This in its self is a large number. Now you move to 32bit and the largest number there is 4294967295. This is a very large number and most (not all) programs will get this high. Now 64 bit can handle numbers up to 18446744073709600000 or there abouts. If a 64bit system wants to use a number bigger than this it will take two clock cycles of cpu time not one. These clock cycles is where the main speed increase is. I don't know how many times speed is vs. 64, but I guess I should point out that you are talking about integers. There are also numbers called "floating point". There is decimal and some others too that I can't think of right now. But what you wrote seems to be a simplified scenario and it doesn't exactly work that way for all operations.
My System Specs

08-22-2008	#52 (permalink)
roy69 47,65,65,6B Join Date: Nov 2007 Vista home premium 64 bit 2,081 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Ok I agree that I have just talked about integer Variables and there are alot of other type. Floating point being the decimal point, also signed and unsigned values which basically cut the amount stored in half for examply instead of 0 to 255 it is now -128 to 128. If a program uses alot of maths routines then it will have a speed increase. However not all of the program is going to be math routines. You will get different menu routines, routines to save data and so on. Doubling the amount of bits will not double the speed on normal programs or maths intensive programs. On normal programs you will not notice much difference. On maths intensive programs you will get a big increase but not twice as much.
My System Specs

08-22-2008	#53 (permalink)
Adrian Wainer Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Vista 64 ultimate, Windows XP 32 Professional, Windows XP 64 Professional 124 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Quote: Originally Posted by KrossX It's interesting to see how everything is based on "how much RAM this and that". I've actually ran Vista x64 with 1GB RAM just for the heck of it, not trouble at all for common tasks (not games). But for example, the benefit I get from 64 bit computing is not the ammount of RAM it can adress (if it has it to being with), but the ability to actually run my programs twice faster. I never thought it would be such a change to make my simple equation solver on 64 bit, it was actually twice faster for double and I loved the long long variables. Nevertheless, knowing that actually the M$ OS are becoming more and more like an X-PC-Box gaming OS. It's logical to think just about the RAM and if the "x64" on the box would give you more FPS... or if you could put more stuff in SLI... kinda, depressing. Hi roy69, rasmasyean and sidewinder this is the posting that sparked the whole "twice as fast debate", well I do not wish to criticize another poster but the way it is written up it is nearly impossible to read ie the colours used for some of the text and the style of writeing is frankly bizarre, so really I would not worry about it too much. Runing one's computer as little more than a super pocket calculator, may or may not produce a 100% increase in speed but very few people's computer usage fits in to that category. So really it appears to me as if there are aspects of this debate, which are akin to three men aboard a submarine argueing who should have the parachute. Best and Warm Regards Adrian Wainer Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 08-22-2008 at 07:02 AM..
My System Specs

08-23-2008	#54 (permalink)
KrossX Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Windows 7 RC x64 (7100) 83 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Hahahaha, this is fun. Well, just to make it clear... I remade my program for 64bit, and yes it runs (my program, not the hole OS nor other programs) in averange twice faster. Basicly, it requires less cycles overall and less iterations to archieve the desired error. It's a pretty simple program easy to test and measure. And just to make another thing clear... 32bit applications WONT run twice faster on a 64bit OS, period.... and even supposed 64bit applications most likely WONT run twice faster comparted to their 32bit counterpart, yes another period. It was only needed to read the post properly, but I admit it, the colors are aweful. Although, I did put a note that says "Added colors and stuff out of boredom", so I'm free of guilt. =P
My System Specs

08-23-2008	#55 (permalink)
Brink Administrator Join Date: Apr 2007 Vista x64 Ultimate SP2, Windows 7 Ultimate x64 25,822 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Another article of interest: Chomping at the (64) bit Source: Chomping at the (64) bit: Consumer Reports Electronics Blog
My System Specs

08-24-2008	#56 (permalink)
Adrian Wainer Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Vista 64 ultimate, Windows XP 32 Professional, Windows XP 64 Professional 124 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Hi Kross, really I was not haveing a go at you, so thanks you took it in good spirit....where I am coming from is that in an open forum there are all sorts of people viewing it and one has to be somewhat careful what one says, in that even very intelligent people can not be experts in everything. E.G. I was recently on a forum with another poster who is a jet passenger airliner pilot and who is much better than most people with computers and he went out and bought a second card to run crossfire for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, when as best I am aware it will not run any faster with a second card, it might even run slower and it might even not run at all with two cards. So if somebody comes on to a forum and starts saying that Vista 64 runs twice as fast, people can come away from that thinking, yeah I'll replace my XP with Vista 64 and my computer will run twice as fast. Best and Warm Regards Adrian Wainer
My System Specs

08-24-2008	#57 (permalink)
rasmasyean Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Vista Ultimate x64 209 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Quote: Originally Posted by Brink Another article of interest: Chomping at the (64) bit Source: Chomping at the (64) bit: Consumer Reports Electronics Blog As we can see, it's all about the extra RAM and the performance acceleration from SuperFetch. The RAM prices dropping like hotcakes and increase habits of multitasking fuel the 64-bit move. Just like I said!
My System Specs

08-24-2008	#58 (permalink)
Brink Administrator Join Date: Apr 2007 Vista x64 Ultimate SP2, Windows 7 Ultimate x64 25,822 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM LOL Rasmasyean, The extra RAM certainely helps for now, but it is just a great bonus until software is made to truly use 64 bit. Read through the article in the first post to see the other main advantages that 64 bit offers.
My System Specs

08-24-2008	#59 (permalink)
KrossX Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Windows 7 RC x64 (7100) 83 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM @Adrian Wainer: Yes, I really didn't think about it that way. Although my point was, as Brink said, that there's more to the 64 bits than just more RAM. Wich is actually the topic's title... And yes, time will pass until true 64bits applications are seen extracting juice from our super-multi-stuff-something-64-processors.... Maybe once 128bits processing is around for PC's and alike? And then... a new topic will appear! "128 bits: More than just cookies". Hehehehe
My System Specs

08-25-2008	#60 (permalink)
rasmasyean Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Vista Ultimate x64 209 posts	Re: 64-bit: More than just the RAM Well...if you put it THAT way, the "quantum computers" over the horizon will blow 64-bit AND 128-bit out of the water! Hey, the first "notable" title that is coming out soon is Adobe CS4. And even then, only selective people will use that. Perhaps it is very true that 64-bit has great "processing" advantages. But practically it means very little until what you say (and that article says) will happen in the future...whenever that may be. Heck, by that time it might already be time to upgrade to Windows 7. And all those scientists have already been using 64-bit for years like in XP-64 (with equation solvers or whatever) anyway. The question then becomes...why should "everyone else" go Vista 64-bit. And that's what we want an answer to...imho.
My System Specs